Seminar Transcript (02.10.2010) – Simon Penny

Chat Records:

Wed Feb 10 17:13:17 PST 2010 IMD Forum for 2/10/10

Wed Feb 10 17:13:33 PST 2010 Simon Penny, UC Irvine

Wed Feb 10 18:09:09 PST 2010 Mansi Dalal: 13.mansi@gmail.com; mdalal@usc.edu

Wed Feb 10 18:17:09 PST 2010 Oh sweet! I move through space in time all the time!

Wed Feb 10 18:21:18 PST 2010 Like vocoders?

Wed Feb 10 18:21:58 PST 2010 vocoders had too many bits for 1990

Wed Feb 10 18:22:11 PST 2010 what’s the difference between vocoders and autotune?

Wed Feb 10 18:22:15 PST 2010 I know there is one

Wed Feb 10 18:22:21 PST 2010 autotune is a type of vocoder

Wed Feb 10 18:22:27 PST 2010 ah

Wed Feb 10 18:22:48 PST 2010 the original vocoders were built in world war 2 to encrypt real time audio transmissions

Wed Feb 10 18:23:03 PST 2010 autotune is used to encrypt pop music

Wed Feb 10 18:23:20 PST 2010 I thought autotune was invented by a retired geologist

Wed Feb 10 18:23:26 PST 2010 or seismologist

Wed Feb 10 18:23:28 PST 2010 something

Wed Feb 10 18:23:33 PST 2010 Oh man. Autotuning would be the worst DRM ever.

Wed Feb 10 18:23:36 PST 2010 seismology and geology were invented using auttune

Wed Feb 10 18:23:40 PST 2010 lol

Wed Feb 10 18:23:46 PST 2010 All your files sound like they’re sung by robots.

Wed Feb 10 18:24:00 PST 2010 most songs on the radio already do

Wed Feb 10 18:24:29 PST 2010 well radio songs are played by robots, and it would make sense that robots would prefer to hear robot music

Wed Feb 10 18:24:29 PST 2010 That’s because they are.

Wed Feb 10 18:24:52 PST 2010 so basically we’re in the matrix?

Wed Feb 10 18:25:10 PST 2010 the matrix that kraftwerk built

Wed Feb 10 18:26:33 PST 2010 In his day, the computers had to walk to school in 4 feet of snow.

Wed Feb 10 18:26:38 PST 2010 Uphill.

Wed Feb 10 18:26:40 PST 2010 Both ways.

Wed Feb 10 18:26:49 PST 2010 Barefoot.

Wed Feb 10 18:26:53 PST 2010 and the snow wasn’t even texture mapped

Wed Feb 10 18:29:45 PST 2010 Oh man, his gang must’ve had the coolest tags.

Wed Feb 10 18:30:21 PST 2010 i’m pretty sure that nintendo realizes that they didn’t invent motion controls

Wed Feb 10 18:30:39 PST 2010 Web interfaces: Spiderman’s favorite interfaces.

Wed Feb 10 18:31:44 PST 2010 Nintendo didn’t invent motion control.

Wed Feb 10 18:31:51 PST 2010 They just made it more accessible to the public.

Wed Feb 10 18:32:01 PST 2010 In concept and in practice.

Wed Feb 10 18:32:12 PST 2010 right, but I think the engineers are probably aware of their antecedents

Wed Feb 10 18:33:08 PST 2010 I would hope so.

Wed Feb 10 18:33:32 PST 2010 especially being that there were commercial VR location based entertainment in the 90s that used motion control

Wed Feb 10 18:33:39 PST 2010 and at least one home controller

Wed Feb 10 18:33:59 PST 2010 That would be a great techno band name

Wed Feb 10 18:34:09 PST 2010 to be really modern, it would be that whole sentence

Wed Feb 10 18:34:10 PST 2010 Meat-robot?

Wed Feb 10 18:34:14 PST 2010 Haha.

Wed Feb 10 18:34:30 PST 2010 Natal is really just a fancy Power Glove.

Wed Feb 10 18:34:35 PST 2010 It reminds me of last semester.

Wed Feb 10 18:34:44 PST 2010 a grandmother’s grandmother has never heard of the body is some kind of meat robot

Wed Feb 10 18:35:04 PST 2010 In her day, the body was some kind of meat-puppet.

Wed Feb 10 18:35:42 PST 2010 TBISKOMR

Wed Feb 10 18:35:46 PST 2010 hot.

Wed Feb 10 18:35:51 PST 2010 http://history.wisc.edu/sommerville/351/351images/pineal.jpg

Wed Feb 10 18:36:06 PST 2010 i had my pineal gland removed years ago

Wed Feb 10 18:36:40 PST 2010 Probably for the best – you never know what kind of chemicals these things can contain.

Wed Feb 10 18:36:50 PST 2010 so many chemicals

Wed Feb 10 18:37:07 PST 2010 Heehee. Bodily practices.

Wed Feb 10 18:37:28 PST 2010 does that mean you never sleep or secrete melatonin?

Wed Feb 10 18:37:46 PST 2010 That would explain a lot.

Wed Feb 10 18:38:02 PST 2010 i did it as an anti-cartesian statement

Wed Feb 10 18:38:16 PST 2010 sounds sort of polar to me

Wed Feb 10 18:38:33 PST 2010 the only downside is I can’t turn left anymore

Wed Feb 10 18:39:01 PST 2010 If only there was some sort of male modeling super-move you could develop…

Wed Feb 10 18:39:26 PST 2010 yeah male modeling is dominated by dualists

Wed Feb 10 18:39:33 PST 2010 My meat-robot can only move abaft.

Wed Feb 10 18:40:01 PST 2010 That’s name of the number one single by the body is some kind of meat robot

Wed Feb 10 18:40:03 PST 2010 It would be much cooler if it was dominated by duelists.

Wed Feb 10 18:40:07 PST 2010 I’d pay to see that.

Wed Feb 10 18:40:24 PST 2010 the male model population would experience constant attrition if that were the case

Wed Feb 10 18:40:33 PST 2010 Preferably fencing.

Wed Feb 10 18:40:39 PST 2010 Yeah, but only the most fit would survive.

Wed Feb 10 18:40:39 PST 2010 only if they used fencing foils on a field of endless roses

Wed Feb 10 18:40:54 PST 2010 if all male models were john barrowman that would be possible

Wed Feb 10 18:40:55 PST 2010 So it would be sort of self-perpetuating as well.

Wed Feb 10 18:41:51 PST 2010 oh, man, I would love it if all male models were The Barrowman

Wed Feb 10 18:42:02 PST 2010 here here

Wed Feb 10 18:42:59 PST 2010 Especially John Barrowmans fencing in rose fields.

Wed Feb 10 18:43:24 PST 2010 I don’t know how appropriate this is, but I always sort of liked the idea that consciousness was a sort of side-effect of our autonomous decision-making processes.

Wed Feb 10 18:43:50 PST 2010 Me too, actually.

Wed Feb 10 18:43:55 PST 2010 Maybe comes from studying AI?

Wed Feb 10 18:44:03 PST 2010 conciousness could be a side effect of john barrowman

Wed Feb 10 18:44:03 PST 2010 Could be.

Wed Feb 10 18:44:23 PST 2010 Well, if it was anyone.

Wed Feb 10 18:44:25 PST 2010 a side effect? how would it be a side effect? how is our decision making process autonomous without consciousness?

Wed Feb 10 18:44:29 PST 2010 Or possibly Bowie.

Wed Feb 10 18:44:50 PST 2010 there is evidence that we make decisions slightly before we conciously think about making them

Wed Feb 10 18:44:53 PST 2010 Well, we have a complex mental machine that aids in making decisions, like animals.

Wed Feb 10 18:45:04 PST 2010 And as a side effect, we’re conscious.

Wed Feb 10 18:45:08 PST 2010 Is the thought, anyway.

Wed Feb 10 18:45:56 PST 2010 Because our machines are so much more complex than anyone else’s.

Wed Feb 10 18:46:02 PST 2010 (By which I mean animals.)

Wed Feb 10 18:46:18 PST 2010 i think our conciousness works like erlang

Wed Feb 10 18:46:22 PST 2010 single assignment variables

Wed Feb 10 18:46:24 PST 2010 Ah, sorry, how is it that we can make choices without a level of consciousness

Wed Feb 10 18:46:44 PST 2010 bugs make choices and they aren’t concious

Wed Feb 10 18:46:49 PST 2010 I’m just thinking that consciousness doesn’t seem to be a side effect of decision making but a necessary piece of the process

Wed Feb 10 18:47:04 PST 2010 think about it, at any given moment you can only make one choice

Wed Feb 10 18:47:12 PST 2010 you have no proof that you could make any other than the one you did

Wed Feb 10 18:47:30 PST 2010 I don’t think I follow.

Wed Feb 10 18:47:47 PST 2010 the past is an illusion

Wed Feb 10 18:48:01 PST 2010 once you make a choice, there was no choice

Wed Feb 10 18:48:10 PST 2010 well lets look at it this way

Wed Feb 10 18:48:22 PST 2010 computers make decisions, in that they have logic gates that go one way or another

Wed Feb 10 18:48:29 PST 2010 but they aren’t concious as far as we know

Wed Feb 10 18:49:03 PST 2010 based on the starting conditions of a program and the input thats fed in, a program takes a given course

Wed Feb 10 18:49:06 PST 2010 well the very definition of consiousness is iffy

Wed Feb 10 18:49:12 PST 2010 but its only one course

Wed Feb 10 18:49:17 PST 2010 people could be like that too

Wed Feb 10 18:49:20 PST 2010 some people would probably argue that consciousness is the ability to make decisions

Wed Feb 10 18:50:10 PST 2010 …

Wed Feb 10 18:50:17 PST 2010 But animals make decisions all the time.

Wed Feb 10 18:50:35 PST 2010 A dog can decide between two bowls of identical food.

Wed Feb 10 18:50:46 PST 2010 not a chow

Wed Feb 10 18:50:47 PST 2010 How do you define decision?

Wed Feb 10 18:50:49 PST 2010 if they’re identical, is it really a decision?

Wed Feb 10 18:50:53 PST 2010 I was thinking of animals, too, Kyla. But also, a computer isn’t its own consciousness, it’s just doing something that another consciousness programmed it to do

Wed Feb 10 18:51:00 PST 2010 If they’re not identical, is it really a decision?

Wed Feb 10 18:51:02 PST 2010 a sophisticated tool

Wed Feb 10 18:51:12 PST 2010 a conundrum

Wed Feb 10 18:51:21 PST 2010 Arguably, we are also doing what we’ve been programmed to?

Wed Feb 10 18:51:21 PST 2010 Compound eye units: ommatidia

Wed Feb 10 18:51:29 PST 2010 If DNA can be looked at as a code sequence?

Wed Feb 10 18:51:36 PST 2010 right

Wed Feb 10 18:51:39 PST 2010 I’m not saying it’s necessarily the case, but I think it could be argued.

Wed Feb 10 18:51:42 PST 2010 now we’re talking about free will

Wed Feb 10 18:51:48 PST 2010 Yeah.

Wed Feb 10 18:51:49 PST 2010 which probably doesn’t exist

Wed Feb 10 18:51:51 PST 2010 Sticky discussion.

Wed Feb 10 18:51:53 PST 2010 Haha.

Wed Feb 10 18:52:04 PST 2010 instinct goes some way towards explaining it, vs learned behaviors, at least in animals

Wed Feb 10 18:52:07 PST 2010 I just had this conversation the other day.

Wed Feb 10 18:52:22 PST 2010 instinct is a decision making heuristic

Wed Feb 10 18:52:31 PST 2010 my DNA doesn’t program me to make specific decisions, it just gives me the ability to make those decisions

Wed Feb 10 18:52:32 PST 2010 perhaps the identical food bowl question is the ONLY way that free will can truly be expressed

Wed Feb 10 18:52:36 PST 2010 and then, it’s irrelevant

Wed Feb 10 18:52:57 PST 2010 @pluto: richard dawkins might disagree

Wed Feb 10 18:53:09 PST 2010 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene

Wed Feb 10 18:53:15 PST 2010 the identical food bowl question?

Wed Feb 10 18:53:24 PST 2010 no that your DNA doesn’t program you

Wed Feb 10 18:53:28 PST 2010 I sort of really like the idea that the only expression of free will is when it doesn’t matter.

Wed Feb 10 18:53:29 PST 2010 I think your DNA probably has a lot to do with the decisions you make… it may determine parameters like aptitudes that are weighty components in various decisions

Wed Feb 10 18:53:32 PST 2010 no I am asking what that is

Wed Feb 10 18:53:39 PST 2010 That appeals to me in a slightly twisted sort of way.

Wed Feb 10 18:53:56 PST 2010 perhaps only david bowie has free will

Wed Feb 10 18:54:34 PST 2010 I submit that most dogs would eat both bowls of food

Wed Feb 10 18:54:48 PST 2010 but which would they eat first?

Wed Feb 10 18:54:51 PST 2010 Yeah, but where would they go *first*?

Wed Feb 10 18:55:12 PST 2010 closest?

Wed Feb 10 18:55:24 PST 2010 Assume they’re equidistant in opposite directions.

Wed Feb 10 18:55:26 PST 2010 they’re equally far away

Wed Feb 10 18:55:34 PST 2010 and the same color

Wed Feb 10 18:55:47 PST 2010 they were materialized in front of the eigendog using a matter assembler

Wed Feb 10 18:56:05 PST 2010 DNA may determine some of the decisions you make – if you have some sort of genetic disorder or condition, you may be unable to choose some physical decisions. But the choice as it goes through your brain requires consciousness. Or you’d never have a clue what you were capable of in order to make the decision in the first place. Am I making sense?

Wed Feb 10 18:56:10 PST 2010 maybe the dog will dither and forget what he’s doing and come back when one has some perceptive difference like distance

Wed Feb 10 18:56:32 PST 2010 If the dog is hungry, he’ll make a decision.

Wed Feb 10 18:56:34 PST 2010 they’re eternal bowls of food

Wed Feb 10 18:56:37 PST 2010 they don’t change with time

Wed Feb 10 18:56:42 PST 2010 For a long time philosophers asserted that the dog would starve to death before it could choose

Wed Feb 10 18:56:45 PST 2010 Dogs would follow the best smell

Wed Feb 10 18:56:47 PST 2010 No one would starve to death for indecision.

Wed Feb 10 18:56:53 PST 2010 They smell the same.

Wed Feb 10 18:56:58 PST 2010 but that’s because old-timey philosophers had little basis in reality

Wed Feb 10 18:57:02 PST 2010 Exactly.

Wed Feb 10 18:57:04 PST 2010 a dog is not an output device

Wed Feb 10 18:57:24 PST 2010 but if you approach the same dog, depending on the dog, they may choose to defend both bowls of food. isn’t that the part that shows consciousness is necessary for decision making?

Wed Feb 10 18:57:29 PST 2010 Well, after it’s eaten it would be.

Wed Feb 10 18:57:54 PST 2010 because computers operate on logic and dogs do not

Wed Feb 10 18:58:00 PST 2010 They’d defend both bowls because they want all the food. That’s not the point.

Wed Feb 10 18:58:58 PST 2010 that isn’t true though because there are social instincts in dogs… and each dog will choose which role it believes itself to be in. leader? subordinate? part of the pack? who is approaching – another leader or another pack member? etc.

Wed Feb 10 18:59:19 PST 2010 I don’t think that any dog would willingly choose to be a subordinate

Wed Feb 10 18:59:24 PST 2010 It’s a thought experiment.

Wed Feb 10 18:59:27 PST 2010 that sort of thing is determined through conflict

Wed Feb 10 18:59:34 PST 2010 and physical elements like size

Wed Feb 10 18:59:38 PST 2010 There is no rest of the pack.

Wed Feb 10 18:59:38 PST 2010 There are no other dogs.

Wed Feb 10 18:59:42 PST 2010 that isn’t really true though. people willingly choose to be subordinates and dogs definitely do

Wed Feb 10 19:00:04 PST 2010 In a pack of one, though, every dog is the leader

Wed Feb 10 19:00:05 PST 2010 that isn’t always the case with dogs at all

Wed Feb 10 19:00:31 PST 2010 are we still on the identical food bowl question? cause I think we went off topic

Wed Feb 10 19:00:36 PST 2010 unrelated, but astounding http://www.petercallesen.com/index/A4PAPERCUT_000.htm

Wed Feb 10 19:00:41 PST 2010 there is only one dog in the identical food bowl question

Wed Feb 10 19:00:54 PST 2010 but not just dogs – people and lots of animals have roles within their species and pick (as well as fight for) those roles. isn’t that where consciousness is needed in order to make decisions regarding these roles and how to behave and act accordingly?

Wed Feb 10 19:00:56 PST 2010 Yeah, I think we’ve sort of left the question.

Wed Feb 10 19:01:29 PST 2010 well the point of that question is that it’s technically unsolveable

Wed Feb 10 19:01:30 PST 2010 Following a set of constraints, even social ones, seems to me to be the opposite of consciousness.

Wed Feb 10 19:01:35 PST 2010 so there’s only so far we can go with it, I guess

Wed Feb 10 19:01:49 PST 2010 sorry, any dog, alone or among other dogs, would behave in a certain way. If you, as a human, approach a dog in that scenario, one dog may choose to defend both bowls while another dog in the same situation would let you have the food

Wed Feb 10 19:02:12 PST 2010 I’m saying, doesn’t that choice in behavior mean that decision making requires consciousness first

Wed Feb 10 19:02:46 PST 2010 You can easily argue though that that’s not a choice. It’s based on the dog’s history of interactions with others.

Wed Feb 10 19:03:00 PST 2010 I think the whole point of the identical food bowl question is that the dog and the bowls exist in complete isolation

Wed Feb 10 19:03:07 PST 2010 Yeah.

Wed Feb 10 19:03:09 PST 2010 puppies make a choice come the first time they make interactions

Wed Feb 10 19:03:16 PST 2010 and babies do as well, right?

Wed Feb 10 19:03:27 PST 2010 It’s the same question, it’s only complicated by changing the situation of the bowls.

Wed Feb 10 19:03:27 PST 2010 and not on any social constraints or physical differences between bowls

Wed Feb 10 19:03:54 PST 2010 isn’t this free will? I’m sorry, I have not been using those words but I think this scenario represents free will

Wed Feb 10 19:04:08 PST 2010 which situation?

Wed Feb 10 19:04:08 PST 2010 without s >.>

Wed Feb 10 19:04:16 PST 2010 the food bowls?

Wed Feb 10 19:04:19 PST 2010 the identical bowl

Wed Feb 10 19:04:20 PST 2010 s

Wed Feb 10 19:04:25 PST 2010 Yeah. That’s the idea.

Wed Feb 10 19:04:32 PST 2010 right, it’s an exercise in free will

Wed Feb 10 19:04:39 PST 2010 That the dog will just pick a bowl before it starves is free will.

Wed Feb 10 19:04:40 PST 2010 but dogs traditionally aren’t supposed to have free will

Wed Feb 10 19:04:53 PST 2010 traditionally?

Wed Feb 10 19:04:55 PST 2010 which is why old-timey philosophers claimed the dog would starve

Wed Feb 10 19:05:01 PST 2010 As opposed to, say, a computer.

Wed Feb 10 19:05:17 PST 2010 well yes, back when the identical food bowl puzzle was created

Wed Feb 10 19:05:38 PST 2010 people seriously claimed a dog would starve instead of eat food right in front of it

Wed Feb 10 19:05:53 PST 2010 are these people that never saw a dog before

Wed Feb 10 19:06:00 PST 2010 Yeah, those philosophers were not particularly concerned with the way reality worked.

Wed Feb 10 19:06:02 PST 2010 lol yeah. Mostly philosophers with those long beards, though, who operated on Plato

Wed Feb 10 19:06:20 PST 2010 they basically thought the dog would seg fault

Wed Feb 10 19:06:27 PST 2010 obviously the drive for survival would outweigh the indecision between the two bowls in reality

Wed Feb 10 19:06:48 PST 2010 A segfaulted dog is a great mental image…

Wed Feb 10 19:06:54 PST 2010 This is David, right? If so, your phone just rang me — you might want to check on it.

Wed Feb 10 19:07:01 PST 2010 all right so yeah I tweaked the experiment a bit trying to prove that there has to be consciousness involved but I kind of thought free will was a given.

Wed Feb 10 19:07:28 PST 2010 I think the argument was that a human would be able to choose, because humans have free will, but a dog would not

Wed Feb 10 19:07:34 PST 2010 a meat-robot would be a great dog toy

Wed Feb 10 19:07:42 PST 2010 it so would

Wed Feb 10 19:07:58 PST 2010 ohhh well… I’m quite sure animals have free will too

Wed Feb 10 19:08:12 PST 2010 why wouldn’t a dog have free will? they can feel complex emotions like shame and can memorize a vocabulary of 300+ words and their meanings

Wed Feb 10 19:08:19 PST 2010 why do humans seem to put themselves so much higher up on the food chain than they are

Wed Feb 10 19:08:42 PST 2010 Because we flew to the moon.

Wed Feb 10 19:08:43 PST 2010 maybe an ant… but dogs, dolphins, monkeys, etc aren’t so much dumber. they don’t have complex society and universities and so forth to pass information to later generations

Wed Feb 10 19:08:58 PST 2010 yeah, dogs barely left the atmosphere

Wed Feb 10 19:09:04 PST 2010 well, back a hundred years ago people still thought that humans and animals were on completely different planes

Wed Feb 10 19:09:13 PST 2010 you know, god make humans in his image and so on

Wed Feb 10 19:09:15 PST 2010 300? I’ve encountered dogs that really get what you say around them so much so that you wonder how many words they *don’t* know

Wed Feb 10 19:09:24 PST 2010 ::shrug:: I don’t actually believe we’re that different.

Wed Feb 10 19:09:26 PST 2010 now of course with evolution we know that they were full of sh*t

Wed Feb 10 19:09:30 PST 2010 That’s the best confluence of topic, nickname, and historical fact that I think I’ve probably ever seen, Laika (:

Wed Feb 10 19:09:33 PST 2010 …Untintentional emoticons.

Wed Feb 10 19:09:44 PST 2010 ok why would a fish pond simulate a factory?

Wed Feb 10 19:09:48 PST 2010 my dog knows how to sit. and his name

Wed Feb 10 19:09:52 PST 2010 so that’s 2

Wed Feb 10 19:09:58 PST 2010 why would anyone ever believe that

Wed Feb 10 19:10:26 PST 2010 sorry about that

Wed Feb 10 19:10:30 PST 2010 S’ok.

Wed Feb 10 19:11:17 PST 2010 jmkeynes: huh?

Wed Feb 10 19:11:23 PST 2010 also, some dog breeds are smarter, like labs and retrievers who were bred as companions / partnership roles, and some are dumber like shitzus that were bred as footwarmers

Wed Feb 10 19:11:26 PST 2010 thats what the speaker was saying

Wed Feb 10 19:11:39 PST 2010 that 50 years ago some guy proposed you could use a fish pond as a brain for a steel mill

Wed Feb 10 19:11:42 PST 2010 For those of us that were paying attention. ^^;

Wed Feb 10 19:11:43 PST 2010 well dogs are just one good example. lots of animals are incredibly smart from dogs to rodents. really it’s hard to say they aren’t smart, conscious, or just as entitled to free will as humans if you’ve ever spent any time with a smart, human-friendly animal of any species

Wed Feb 10 19:11:51 PST 2010 why would anyone believe that

Wed Feb 10 19:12:05 PST 2010 I guess you were paying some, but not enough attention

Wed Feb 10 19:12:09 PST 2010 or you’d probably know

Wed Feb 10 19:12:27 PST 2010 I don’t think he understood why

Wed Feb 10 19:12:29 PST 2010 I don’t think he was saying that the pond would simulate the mill. I think it was more like this: the measurable changes that can be made to the mill will influence the pond in various ways, and the pond’s measurable reactions can be used to optimize the mill in some way.

Wed Feb 10 19:12:31 PST 2010 I’m not even sure why a steel mill needs a brain

Wed Feb 10 19:12:39 PST 2010 notbatman: I don’t think those reasons for breeding are exactly accurate >.>

Wed Feb 10 19:12:42 PST 2010 right

Wed Feb 10 19:12:46 PST 2010 but why would anyone believe that

Wed Feb 10 19:12:55 PST 2010 but they are funny and strangely correct on some level

Wed Feb 10 19:13:09 PST 2010 its just picking an arbitrary output and an arbitrary system

Wed Feb 10 19:13:11 PST 2010 Yes, Shih-Tzus were arm-warmers.

Wed Feb 10 19:13:12 PST 2010 it’s true, though, that some breeds are bred to be able to excel at certain functions

Wed Feb 10 19:13:13 PST 2010 Sleeve dogs.

Wed Feb 10 19:13:14 PST 2010 and using it as a display device

Wed Feb 10 19:13:24 PST 2010 lol Kyla

Wed Feb 10 19:13:37 PST 2010 its like trying to find an optimal route home by listening to a car’s CD player

Wed Feb 10 19:14:07 PST 2010 Well, assuming you think a factory is modeled mathematically.

Wed Feb 10 19:14:07 PST 2010 Are you telling me you don’t plan routes by how many times your favorite song/CD will play through, or at least consider them in terms of that figure?

Wed Feb 10 19:14:17 PST 2010 shih-tzus were pretty much always just status symbols

Wed Feb 10 19:14:22 PST 2010 I mean, I count time while driving in terms of tracks

Wed Feb 10 19:14:23 PST 2010 When, in fact, living behavior might be more similar to other living behavior than to mathematics.

Wed Feb 10 19:14:36 PST 2010 well I do sometimes plan routes home by how long a podcast is

Wed Feb 10 19:14:39 PST 2010 but pomeranians, another toy, are descended from sled-pulling siberian work dogs

Wed Feb 10 19:14:43 PST 2010 At least, that’s what I got. I could be totally wrong.

Wed Feb 10 19:14:44 PST 2010 But this is a little different.

Wed Feb 10 19:14:46 PST 2010 however that logic wouldn’t result in an efficient steel mill

Wed Feb 10 19:14:48 PST 2010 smaller breeds were bred originally (mostly) as a means of keeping the rat population down

Wed Feb 10 19:14:56 PST 2010 it would result in one that meets the approval of a school of trout

Wed Feb 10 19:15:03 PST 2010 and corgis are herding dogs

Wed Feb 10 19:15:06 PST 2010 it’s since rats weren’t quite the same problem that they starting chaging

Wed Feb 10 19:15:07 PST 2010 which I always found hilarious

Wed Feb 10 19:15:16 PST 2010 I mean, corgis herding cattle?

Wed Feb 10 19:15:35 PST 2010 Supposedly they are that shape so they can roll out of the way of their hooves.

Wed Feb 10 19:15:40 PST 2010 haha

Wed Feb 10 19:15:41 PST 2010 corgis are rectangular, which helps them form an impenetrable wall

Wed Feb 10 19:15:56 PST 2010 But the general idea of externalizing some computation to a biological system (or, more generally, a heterogeneous external system) is not objectionable at all.

Wed Feb 10 19:15:57 PST 2010 thats true but the russians have been trying to kill them for years

Wed Feb 10 19:16:19 PST 2010 its totally objectionable if its arbitrary

Wed Feb 10 19:16:31 PST 2010 there’s no reason to think the biological system would result in good decisions

Wed Feb 10 19:16:34 PST 2010 Laika when you said that I got a mental image of a bunch of corgi centurions forming a Roman turtle

Wed Feb 10 19:16:56 PST 2010 That’s true enough, unless your utility function is similar to the biological system’s.

Wed Feb 10 19:16:57 PST 2010 the fittest hounddog has the best smell, finds carcasses

Wed Feb 10 19:17:08 PST 2010 the fittest shitzu keeps your feet warm and has soft fur

Wed Feb 10 19:17:14 PST 2010 right

Wed Feb 10 19:17:24 PST 2010 it’s just eugenics

Wed Feb 10 19:17:31 PST 2010 survival of the cuddliest

Wed Feb 10 19:17:33 PST 2010 and being that I wrote the general theory, i can say pretty definitively that aggregate demand has nothing to do with fish ponds

Wed Feb 10 19:17:52 PST 2010 broken windows however…

Wed Feb 10 19:18:38 PST 2010 http://www.senster.com/ihnatowicz/senster/sensterphotos/senster_short.mpg

Wed Feb 10 19:20:47 PST 2010 ah dog breeding is affected by humans frequently more negatively than positively though. they take a dog that’s already good at what it does, and try to make it better or more pleasant looking, and frequently end up with neurotic or otherwise screwed up animals. I think it’s bulldogs they bred so much for small hips that females frequently can’t give birth to their own pups and need a c-section

Wed Feb 10 19:21:05 PST 2010 stupid eugenics

Wed Feb 10 19:21:07 PST 2010 steve anderson knows what to do

Wed Feb 10 19:21:13 PST 2010 This happens to engineers, too — like in The Mother of All Demos! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos

Wed Feb 10 19:21:21 PST 2010 Oh Steve.

Wed Feb 10 19:21:34 PST 2010 i actually watched about 40 minutes of the google video of the mother of all demos

Wed Feb 10 19:21:39 PST 2010 its super charming

Wed Feb 10 19:22:24 PST 2010 that’s pretty amazing

Wed Feb 10 19:22:39 PST 2010 john dvorak would disagree

Wed Feb 10 19:22:43 PST 2010 a mouse is not amazing at all

Wed Feb 10 19:22:47 PST 2010 I wonder how many people actually understood the significance at the time

Wed Feb 10 19:23:30 PST 2010 that’s true but there’s also pedigrees of humans that share disorders. black men are more susceptible to sickle cell anemia and irish people are susceptible to digestive disorders, but in general human breeding goes in line with canine education etc and furthers specialization. dogs are probably better off with human intervention and genetic problems would occur without human intervention

Wed Feb 10 19:24:02 PST 2010 tell that to pugs

Wed Feb 10 19:24:12 PST 2010 purebred dogs are becoming more isolated genetically, whereas the human trend is toward interbreeding

Wed Feb 10 19:24:20 PST 2010 which makes more sense evolutionarily

Wed Feb 10 19:24:30 PST 2010 humans don’t have a shared standard for who gets to breed with who in order to produce what sort of human.

Wed Feb 10 19:24:37 PST 2010 except social norms

Wed Feb 10 19:24:45 PST 2010 and egyptian pharoahs

Wed Feb 10 19:24:49 PST 2010 if we did that might go rather worse than it is going without a shared standard

Wed Feb 10 19:24:51 PST 2010 yeah actually humans have had many systems for that

Wed Feb 10 19:25:24 PST 2010 I’d argue that most societies form for exactly that reason

Wed Feb 10 19:25:30 PST 2010 at least initially

Wed Feb 10 19:25:47 PST 2010 also, mutts breed in the dog world and make some beautiful, wonderful dogs that are usually healthy with fewer problems and just as if not more intelligent than their purebred cousins

Wed Feb 10 19:26:09 PST 2010 exactly. interbreeding is better for the population

Wed Feb 10 19:26:35 PST 2010 but societies often function as de-facto dog breeders, deciding who marries whom

Wed Feb 10 19:26:45 PST 2010 i.e., effective eugenics

Wed Feb 10 19:26:46 PST 2010 or even de jure dog breaders

Wed Feb 10 19:27:04 PST 2010 which is why we’re not all just a uniform shade of beige by now.

Wed Feb 10 19:27:05 PST 2010 Well, we’re breeding them to death as it is.

Wed Feb 10 19:27:12 PST 2010 laws prohibiting interracial marraige were definitely de jure breeding guidelines

Wed Feb 10 19:27:13 PST 2010 Strangely, that FC2 map always takes me out of the experience more than a normal pop-up map. The uncanny valley of the creepy hands really breaks the fourth wall for me.

Wed Feb 10 19:27:22 PST 2010 Purebred Boston Terriers can’t breed on their own anymore.

Wed Feb 10 19:27:29 PST 2010 neither can bulldogs

Wed Feb 10 19:27:39 PST 2010 hips too small

Wed Feb 10 19:27:39 PST 2010 cats don’t breed at all

Wed Feb 10 19:27:40 PST 2010 ah I was right bulldogs

Wed Feb 10 19:27:40 PST 2010 The females’ hips can’t handle being mounted. They can only be bred through artificial insemination.

Wed Feb 10 19:27:43 PST 2010 dog-breeders also aren’t just making these incestuous dog tribe. some of the most popular dogs these days are interbred, like labradoodles

Wed Feb 10 19:27:48 PST 2010 tribes*

Wed Feb 10 19:27:52 PST 2010 yikes horrible

Wed Feb 10 19:28:24 PST 2010 The creepy hand is bad, but I love that you can walk while viewing this thing in front of you. It makes my wrists twitch and my eyes flick downwards, so I think that’s good.

Wed Feb 10 19:28:32 PST 2010 yeah but many dog breeders believe that a new breed isn’t legit until it’s accepted by the pedigree association or whatever

Wed Feb 10 19:28:36 PST 2010 which can take decades

Wed Feb 10 19:28:42 PST 2010 also keep in mind that until very recently in human society, in-breeding in upper-crust society was preferred

Wed Feb 10 19:28:48 PST 2010 oh, yes

Wed Feb 10 19:28:59 PST 2010 its only creepy because its based on clint hocking’s actual hands

Wed Feb 10 19:29:17 PST 2010 have to keep those dirty peasants from inheriting desirable traits

Wed Feb 10 19:29:38 PST 2010 If this were the 90′s, we’d have pack-in foam hands in the box so that our hands could look like that.

Wed Feb 10 19:29:46 PST 2010 Problem solved.

Wed Feb 10 19:30:13 PST 2010 i miss the 90s and their foamy accessories

Wed Feb 10 19:30:30 PST 2010 or, well, an actual cloth map, which I guess would have also worked

Wed Feb 10 19:30:58 PST 2010 still, laws in some countries were not for very long in all of human history, and inbred royalty is also a small portion of the population in some areas of the globe. there was never a rule for the whole globe all at once. or am I wrong?

Wed Feb 10 19:31:05 PST 2010 80s IF games intended for their players to draw maps as they played

Wed Feb 10 19:31:12 PST 2010 i think there’s something kind of great about that

Wed Feb 10 19:31:32 PST 2010 well, no, because until very recently there was no way to communicate globally

Wed Feb 10 19:31:48 PST 2010 the country of Japan was practially mythological under 150 years ago

Wed Feb 10 19:32:04 PST 2010 no thats true, japan has only been around since the 1980s

Wed Feb 10 19:32:13 PST 2010 before that it was only a figment of our imagination

Wed Feb 10 19:32:31 PST 2010 Maybe he really just wants a cannon to shoot things with?

Wed Feb 10 19:32:35 PST 2010 humans spread across the globe over time, I don’t mean breeding according to the span of just one human life time.

Wed Feb 10 19:32:40 PST 2010 no he has one already

Wed Feb 10 19:32:49 PST 2010 trust me, you don’t want to mess up on presenting the seminar

Wed Feb 10 19:32:57 PST 2010 or scott will bring it

Wed Feb 10 19:33:07 PST 2010 that’s tracy’s job now

Wed Feb 10 19:33:11 PST 2010 A multimodal cannon — fires rocks, squirrels, pudding, undergrads?

Wed Feb 10 19:33:21 PST 2010 pudding made of undergrads

Wed Feb 10 19:33:25 PST 2010 but only those four things

Wed Feb 10 19:33:45 PST 2010 what will happen if one tries to load in a college dropout?

Wed Feb 10 19:34:34 PST 2010 he receives a college education and a good job

Wed Feb 10 19:34:47 PST 2010 and then is fired off into the world to do good

Wed Feb 10 19:34:51 PST 2010 that’s one progressive cannon

Wed Feb 10 19:35:12 PST 2010 why do cannons have to bring pain

Wed Feb 10 19:35:20 PST 2010 I’d enroll in a proper History of Computer Games course. I feel like I know it pretty well, but I’d love to go through it rigorously with some educational intention or agenda.

Wed Feb 10 19:35:22 PST 2010 Cake cannons don’t.

Wed Feb 10 19:35:28 PST 2010 historical bias?

Wed Feb 10 19:35:34 PST 2010 Yeah, a historical bias would be great.

Wed Feb 10 19:35:48 PST 2010 I would <3 a games history course. enjoy history and context

Wed Feb 10 19:35:48 PST 2010 History is at its best when the bias is up-front

Wed Feb 10 19:35:53 PST 2010 yes definitely

Wed Feb 10 19:36:02 PST 2010 but it’s also fun to extract the hidden biases

Wed Feb 10 19:36:23 PST 2010 A lot of the key elements of a History course are / are becoming inaccessible.

Wed Feb 10 19:36:28 PST 2010 the world is full of biases

Wed Feb 10 19:36:29 PST 2010 But you know, something that traces mechanics through their heritage, or games across companies/time periods according to individual developers/development teams

Wed Feb 10 19:36:48 PST 2010 for example, I am biased in favor of oxygen, as opposed to methane.

Wed Feb 10 19:36:57 PST 2010 in terms of my personal breathing comfort

Wed Feb 10 19:37:07 PST 2010 A history of Computer Games course would be a very narrowly focused course in terms of Interactive media

Wed Feb 10 19:37:07 PST 2010 I think the best you can do with history is to try to learn what you can to reduce ignorance

Wed Feb 10 19:37:22 PST 2010 you don’t want to re invent the wheel but its not possible to know all things about all antecedents of your work

Wed Feb 10 19:38:20 PST 2010 Even a semester-long survey of, say, NES games that were released in Japan but not the US would be really fascinating.

Wed Feb 10 19:38:22 PST 2010 http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2010/02/xxx.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+gamesetwatch+%28GameSetWatch%29

Wed Feb 10 19:39:05 PST 2010 I cannot. Believe. You just did that.

Wed Feb 10 19:39:16 PST 2010 why can’t it be in the US to be fascinating?

Wed Feb 10 19:39:32 PST 2010 You misunderstand me — why in Japan, but not the US? that’s the interesting bit.

Wed Feb 10 19:39:53 PST 2010 I can’t find them right now, but Warren Spector did some interviews to try and grab some of the oral history of game development.

Wed Feb 10 19:39:57 PST 2010 I’m still misunderstanding you

Wed Feb 10 19:40:27 PST 2010 as in, what were the factors that led the publishers to decide that it was fit for a japanese audience, but not an american one?

Wed Feb 10 19:40:28 PST 2010 what’s wrong with US released games to study – or best yet, why not games released everywhere – including the different versions

Wed Feb 10 19:40:38 PST 2010 ohhh

Wed Feb 10 19:40:45 PST 2010 it’s an interesting sociological study

Wed Feb 10 19:41:26 PST 2010 if there is only one history course I don’t think it should have such a specific focus and japanese-only nes games

Wed Feb 10 19:41:30 PST 2010 it’s like how the box art for many games changes with US localization

Wed Feb 10 19:41:30 PST 2010 I thought you were saying it would not be interesting to study games that were just released in the US for some reason. I think it would all be wonderful and I’ve also been looking for a history class of this type here for that reason

Wed Feb 10 19:41:35 PST 2010 Anyway, a really vital thing is remembering that games are made by people, and getting to know who those people are and how they move between projects would be fascinating.

Wed Feb 10 19:41:49 PST 2010 Cultural Game preferences could be its own course: so many differences between the american, japanese and european approaches

Wed Feb 10 19:42:01 PST 2010 people in the US apparently won’t buy any games without a woman in a tight shirt slapped on the cover

Wed Feb 10 19:42:09 PST 2010 or like, a guy with a big sword

Wed Feb 10 19:42:11 PST 2010 I’m not saying there should be only one course, I think it could easily support an MFA or a Ph.D.

Wed Feb 10 19:42:11 PST 2010 bioshock, fable, etc?

Wed Feb 10 19:42:12 PST 2010 I know I won’t.

Wed Feb 10 19:42:16 PST 2010
sounds more like independent study than a class, joe

Wed Feb 10 19:42:17 PST 2010 look at ICO, or Heavy Rain

Wed Feb 10 19:42:26 PST 2010 I can’t think of a game I’ve ever bought with a woman in a tight shirt slapped to the cover

Wed Feb 10 19:42:39 PST 2010 maybe ff10?

Wed Feb 10 19:42:43 PST 2010 it’s happened more times than you realize

Wed Feb 10 19:43:03 PST 2010 male characters in games are also idealized representations of the male form

Wed Feb 10 19:43:05 PST 2010 tracy, do you say that because it’s a personal topic, a specific topic, or a brief topic? (Not trying to be confrontational, just curious — blasted plaintext)

Wed Feb 10 19:43:09 PST 2010 no ugly people in games or hollywood

Wed Feb 10 19:43:11 PST 2010 well it’s like reading books. you might favor sci fi/fantasy because you started out with some of those kinds and loved them and continued reading mostly that genre. but if you get a wider net thrown out there, you’ll like more… and then you’ll learn to be a better writer in the process. same with games, the more you learn of games, the better a designer you’ll be

Wed Feb 10 19:43:16 PST 2010 excep yangus from dg8

Wed Feb 10 19:43:19 PST 2010 dq8*

Wed Feb 10 19:43:24 PST 2010
yes, because you are curious about it

Wed Feb 10 19:43:41 PST 2010 oh-hoh

Wed Feb 10 19:43:47 PST 2010 touché

Wed Feb 10 19:44:33 PST 2010 sadly, Jade, that is frequently the case. or at least the bias about the market

Wed Feb 10 19:44:35 PST 2010 my xenogears save is important culturally

Wed Feb 10 19:45:40 PST 2010 ICO is a famous example. The japanese box art was great, but execs thought that us customers wouldn’t buy it because the art wasn’t action oriented enough

Wed Feb 10 19:45:42 PST 2010 Behold: http://www.destructoid.com/sony-ico-would-have-sold-if-its-box-art-didn-t-suck-149000.phtml

Wed Feb 10 19:45:45 PST 2010 so of course the most produced stuff for this market ends up being a guy with a big sword or a woman with a tight shirt

Wed Feb 10 19:48:04 PST 2010 If anybody else is interested in doing a general game history, a game mechanic history, a game developer history, or a game publishing history study, I’d like to chat about it. ( josborn@usc.edu )

Wed Feb 10 19:48:25 PST 2010 not knowing history doesn’t mean you’re not bound to the history

Wed Feb 10 19:48:35 PST 2010 it just means you don’t know the context of what you’re doing

Wed Feb 10 19:48:37 PST 2010 just that you’re doomed to repeat it?

Wed Feb 10 19:49:02 PST 2010 rappers who didn’t study previous musical styles are still affected by them

Wed Feb 10 19:49:13 PST 2010 they didn’t invent their music in a bubble even if they think they did

Wed Feb 10 19:50:50 PST 2010 the first games history course should cover chess, goh and poker imo

Wed Feb 10 19:52:39 PST 2010 turns out my link was relevant after all!

Wed Feb 10 19:56:52 PST 2010 I think we all take for granted how incredibly accessible information is in this era

Wed Feb 10 19:57:11 PST 2010 Joe: I’m totally interested in history although I’m very busy. Is it a directed studies you’re interested in doing?

Wed Feb 10 19:57:31 PST 2010 I mean, who knows how many incredible advances have been lost to time

Wed Feb 10 19:57:40 PST 2010 I think people take that for granted, too. I also think people don’t spend enough time thinking about the biases of the people who wrote the history

Wed Feb 10 19:57:57 PST 2010 The Mongolian invasion, the burning of the library at Alexandria, the fall of Rome

Wed Feb 10 19:58:21 PST 2010 we’re constantly regaining lost knowledge

Wed Feb 10 19:58:42 PST 2010 notbatman: I’m thinking about it, and I’m talking it over with Teddy as well. I mean, a 3-person independent study sounds awkward, but we can at least have some good conversation.

Wed Feb 10 20:00:01 PST 2010 history of games should include analog games. I doubt counter-strike could have resonated if children weren’t taught to play tag for thousands of years

Wed Feb 10 20:00:16 PST 2010 See also: Capture-the-flag.

Wed Feb 10 20:00:20 PST 2010 i used to be really into studying games like go and chess but the fact that I don’t enjoy playing them makes me wonder

Wed Feb 10 20:00:37 PST 2010 ahhh but maybe you don’t enjoy playing them because you enjoy more modern re-interpreted versions

Wed Feb 10 20:00:43 PST 2010 in other words, maybe you’re spoiled by new games

Wed Feb 10 20:00:59 PST 2010 they’re complicated, rigidly structured, trapped by their form

Wed Feb 10 20:01:06 PST 2010 or maybe the new games have essential elements to what I consider an enjoyable play experience that go and poker do not

Wed Feb 10 20:01:12 PST 2010 too minutely tweaked for too long

Wed Feb 10 20:01:40 PST 2010 Or maybe you’re just a wuss. Wuss.

Wed Feb 10 20:01:42 PST 2010 Joe would your study also include things like pre-digital games and physical/technology games like laser tag and AR?

Wed Feb 10 20:01:55 PST 2010 go is a game that presents strategical challenges that are way more sophisticated than most video games, maybe all

Wed Feb 10 20:01:59 PST 2010 but its still less compelling

Wed Feb 10 20:02:03 PST 2010 thats an interesting situation

Wed Feb 10 20:02:14 PST 2010 hmm, well that’s an opinion

Wed Feb 10 20:02:17 PST 2010 I don’t know. I think they’re probably important, but I kind of want to hone in on 1984 and later.

Wed Feb 10 20:02:26 PST 2010 i think its an opinion that the market would support

Wed Feb 10 20:02:28 PST 2010 I’m sure many go-enthusiasts would have a differing opinion

Wed Feb 10 20:02:55 PST 2010 perhaps a history of gaming course could be a combination of several people’s independent studies come together

Wed Feb 10 20:03:14 PST 2010 perhaps the independent study can be gathering information about what the ideal first games history course should be

Wed Feb 10 20:03:26 PST 2010 the fact that video games exploded into a major cultural phenomenon that rivals cinema in popularity means they offer something that earlier games didn’t

Wed Feb 10 20:03:31 PST 2010 so you could concentrate on, say, NES games while someone else could focus on early arcade games.

Wed Feb 10 20:04:01 PST 2010 you don’t think poker, chess or goh are cultural phenomenons?

Wed Feb 10 20:04:19 PST 2010 not on the same scale at this moment in history

Wed Feb 10 20:04:44 PST 2010 I guess I don’t think of them as phenomena anymore. They’re just fixtures of culture

Wed Feb 10 20:05:18 PST 2010 is shakespeare not a cultural phenomenon because years later avatar set a new box office record?

Wed Feb 10 20:05:45 PST 2010 phemonenon just seems like it implies urgency, immediacy

Wed Feb 10 20:05:51 PST 2010 more people have played poker in the last twenty minutes across the globe than will ever play bioshock I bet you

Wed Feb 10 20:05:52 PST 2010 but I know that’s a fallacy

Wed Feb 10 20:05:53 PST 2010 it’s just that early games were not all packaged and spread around in the same *instant* way

Wed Feb 10 20:05:59 PST 2010 there are economic incentives that make shakespeare less accessible in a popular way than avatar

Wed Feb 10 20:06:12 PST 2010 UConn Classics professor Roger Travis offers the word ‘practomime’ for games in which one plays as a specific character. That might be valuable for this discussion.

Wed Feb 10 20:06:17 PST 2010 a theatrical performance has to charge a lot more than a showing of a film

Wed Feb 10 20:07:11 PST 2010 see that sounds like it might yield some interesting results

Wed Feb 10 20:07:31 PST 2010 of course sports are a form of games that is way more popular than video games

Wed Feb 10 20:07:51 PST 2010 but I have no interest in them either, so there must be a reason for that

Wed Feb 10 20:08:13 PST 2010 perhaps you don’t like the current culture around them?

Wed Feb 10 20:08:13 PST 2010 to play a practomimetic game, you need imagination and empathy. To play sports, you need the opposite

Wed Feb 10 20:08:28 PST 2010 I don’t know about that

Wed Feb 10 20:08:30 PST 2010 sports are a substitute for war

Wed Feb 10 20:08:35 PST 2010 You need imagination and yomi

Wed Feb 10 20:08:35 PST 2010 what is the opposite of imagination

Wed Feb 10 20:08:35 PST 2010 if you imagine during a game of sports, you lose

Wed Feb 10 20:08:42 PST 2010 that doesn’t exactly mean that one is a better or a more popular form of media/entertainment/gaming

Wed Feb 10 20:08:44 PST 2010 Yomi is just weaponized empathy

Wed Feb 10 20:09:12 PST 2010 if you feel empathetic for the other team during sports, you are letting down your side

Wed Feb 10 20:09:36 PST 2010 would a practomimimeticentric curriculum correspond to the introduction of narrativity to games?

Wed Feb 10 20:09:40 PST 2010 I suppose team sports require enough empathy to look out for members of your own team

Wed Feb 10 20:09:55 PST 2010 team sports are fascist

Wed Feb 10 20:10:17 PST 2010 As David Sirlin says, tournament Street Fighter is a game primarily about yomi, not a game about Ryu or Ken or quarter-circles.

Wed Feb 10 20:10:18 PST 2010 Fascists are probably good at team sports.

Wed Feb 10 20:10:25 PST 2010 that is true

Wed Feb 10 20:10:42 PST 2010 hmm

Wed Feb 10 20:10:51 PST 2010 maybe fascists became fascists after not being picked for team sports

Wed Feb 10 20:10:53 PST 2010 http://www.ace.uci.edu/penny/

Wed Feb 10 20:10:54 PST 2010 the sad inner world of fascism

Wed Feb 10 20:11:03 PST 2010 I think strategy evolved after the game itself did

Wed Feb 10 20:11:21 PST 2010 Maybe Rudy would have become one if he weren’t ultimately rewarded.

Wed Feb 10 20:11:29 PST 2010 like, soccer was originally just about rushing down the field with the ball as fast as possible

Wed Feb 10 20:11:32 PST 2010 mmm sports often have evolving strategies

Wed Feb 10 20:11:39 PST 2010 then strategy evolved later to make the game more interesting

Wed Feb 10 20:11:43 PST 2010 Basketball has evolving rules, too

Wed Feb 10 20:11:44 PST 2010 recently, spiking the volley ball and full-court press basketball

Wed Feb 10 20:11:54 PST 2010 to counter dominant or degenerate strategies

Wed Feb 10 20:12:07 PST 2010 sports and other conventional games require a modality of critical thinking that, while not directly analogous to standard creativity or empathy, often rewards unpredictable or nonlinear strategies

Wed Feb 10 20:12:19 PST 2010 hockey could be so much better if it allowed all strategies

Wed Feb 10 20:12:29 PST 2010 laika: to answer your earlier question, maybe

Wed Feb 10 20:12:31 PST 2010 in conclusion, consciousness is comparable and contrastable

Wed Feb 10 20:12:43 PST 2010 and it’s over!

Wed Feb 10 20:14:02 PST 2010 oh I guess they don’t allow it anymore though