Scott Fisher

‹Seminar› Seminar 01/14
14/01/2009 17:42:08 ‹Dread› IMD Forum for 1/14/09: Eric Zimmerman
14/01/2009 17:47:42 ‹peterp› Hello
14/01/2009 17:48:05 ‹peterp› For access to the Backchannel, please make sure you are connected to the im-seminar wireless network
14/01/2009 17:48:21 ‹peterp› im-seminar
14/01/2009 17:48:35 ‹peterp› or use one of the fixed stations on the sides of the room.
14/01/2009 17:51:24 ‹Jamie› It's so awesome not being on USC wireless
14/01/2009 18:04:22 ‹BlassFamouss (J› test, test
14/01/2009 18:05:42 ‹EvidentManiac› yep yep
14/01/2009 18:11:38 ‹Jamie› "In the future, everyone will be a game designer"
14/01/2009 18:12:20 ‹EvidentManiac› In the future, there will be robots.
14/01/2009 18:12:32 ‹Jamie› Is this analogous to the claim that, post word-processor, everyone is a writer?
14/01/2009 18:12:45 ‹miker› no, it's a play
14/01/2009 18:14:37 ‹Jamie› "In the future, everyone will be world-famous for 15 minutes" - Andy Warhol (?)
14/01/2009 18:15:50 ‹miker› good old rock, nothing beats rock
14/01/2009 18:16:00 ‹s› victory! ^_^
14/01/2009 18:19:48 ‹Diab› I got kicked out of the MMRPS server!
14/01/2009 18:20:02 ‹Diana› dude, log back in before anyone notices
14/01/2009 18:20:09 ‹Cynthia› need some standard rules, cause some people would go on 3 and some on go. :X
14/01/2009 18:20:11 ‹s› you know joe?
14/01/2009 18:20:12 ‹s› i beat him
14/01/2009 18:20:13 ‹s› !
14/01/2009 18:20:15 ‹s› ;]
14/01/2009 18:20:19 ‹Diab› *sneaking in*
14/01/2009 18:20:25 ‹ndef› Hahaha.
14/01/2009 18:21:38 ‹Dread› MMRPScissors
14/01/2009 18:24:19 ‹Dread› http://www.gamelab.com/
14/01/2009 18:29:28 ‹EvidentManiac› Work Time Fun?
14/01/2009 18:30:51 ‹Dread› http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/david_perry_on_videogames.html
14/01/2009 18:32:01 ‹Al the Yang› That was an intense soundtrack
14/01/2009 18:32:10 ‹EvidentManiac› http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Perry
14/01/2009 18:33:44 ‹Cynthia› gryphonwing longbow for 90g!? (... j/k)
14/01/2009 18:34:09 ‹Jamie› Graphics = Set dressing for information spaces
14/01/2009 18:34:31 ‹Cynthia› Graphics are what all of us here at IMD wish would happen automatically. :(
14/01/2009 18:34:52 ‹Jamie› http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_boxing
14/01/2009 18:39:22 ‹EvidentManiac› I've always found myself getting frustrated at people who couldn't operate various computer applications...
14/01/2009 18:40:28 ‹EvidentManiac› http://www.2719hyperion.com/2007/07/21st-century-begins-october-1-1982.html
14/01/2009 18:40:47 ‹miker› see, the problem i have with the industry / information / ludic age paradigm is that the first two are defined by economy, and the third iny luxury
14/01/2009 18:41:29 ‹pvd› that's not entirely true
14/01/2009 18:41:54 ‹Diana› I dunno. Access to technology has always been a barrier to entry.
14/01/2009 18:42:05 ‹Diana› The industrial age didn't happen everywhere, and neither did the information age.
14/01/2009 18:42:33 ‹pvd› no but information and the information age are not exactly the same thing
14/01/2009 18:43:51 ‹Jamie› Are you drawing a contrast between the Cotton Gin and Donkey Kong as economic movers, Mike?
14/01/2009 18:44:16 ‹miker› well, only in the sense of what the underpinnings of an economy are
14/01/2009 18:44:39 ‹miker› the cotton gin fundamentally changed the way that goods were produced
14/01/2009 18:45:00 ‹miker› donkey kong, while greatly affecting the economy, were not "prime movers" in that same sense
14/01/2009 18:45:04 ‹miker› *was
14/01/2009 18:46:26 ‹ndef› I think social networking is a good example of how the "Ludic Age" has a fundamental impact on how people relate to each other. Not economics, specifically, but not merely luxury, either.
14/01/2009 18:46:53 ‹Dread› systems play design
14/01/2009 18:47:31 ‹miker› i guess then, arguing that they each category represents the way that people spend the bulk of their time is more accurate
14/01/2009 18:47:54 ‹Jamie› It seems like an "Age" is a description of a cultural/social shift
14/01/2009 18:48:00 ‹pvd› I would say that we should draw a distinction between "how people spend a bulk of their time" and "how people relate to each other"
14/01/2009 18:48:14 ‹pvd› because I think that the latter is the more significant
14/01/2009 18:48:18 ‹Diana› or a lens through which we see the world
14/01/2009 18:48:23 ‹pvd› yes
14/01/2009 18:48:27 ‹Diana› everything in the context of play, etc.
14/01/2009 18:48:28 ‹miker› i'd argue that the latter is a subset of the former
14/01/2009 18:48:38 ‹Jamie› The Industrial Age came about BECAUSE of some economic shortcut, but that doesn't make it economic in nature
14/01/2009 18:48:55 ‹Jamie› it's still about a fundamental change of experience, whatever the cause
14/01/2009 18:49:29 ‹pvd› mike: I'm not sure I entirely disagree, but I'd like to hear why you think that
14/01/2009 18:50:00 ‹miker› well, i'd say that the time which people spend interacting has greatly increased since leisure time has increased
14/01/2009 18:50:33 ‹pvd› Jamie: I think that both the information and industrial age came about due to the availability of certain types of resources (natural & abstract) and the technology enabled by them
14/01/2009 18:50:47 ‹Diana› Mike: I'd argue that we don't spend more time interacting, we just interact with more people
14/01/2009 18:50:56 ‹pvd› I agree with that
14/01/2009 18:53:44 ‹s› haha : ]
14/01/2009 18:54:59 ‹pvd› I think that interaction has been slightly changed due to the interpretation of the communication mediums we use now, and what types of barriers we maintain while using them
14/01/2009 18:55:28 ‹Diana› It certainly creates entirely new hierarchies for relationships
14/01/2009 18:55:37 ‹s› the standup/sitdown has an interesting commentary on conformity
14/01/2009 18:55:42 ‹miker› that i'll agree with
14/01/2009 18:56:00 ‹Jamie› considering we're all sitting, we all cheated
14/01/2009 18:57:15 ‹s› but yeah like, people tend aim for an equilibrium where they are somewhat the same and somewhat distinct than their neighbors (or those they interact with in some way)
14/01/2009 18:57:26 ‹EvidentManiac› http://www.amazon.com/Game-Design-Theory-Practice-CD-ROM/dp/1556227353
14/01/2009 18:59:00 ‹Jamie› when my game is played on a nudist beach, i'll know i've really made it
14/01/2009 18:59:24 ‹EvidentManiac› So definitely targetting portable, then?
14/01/2009 18:59:29 ‹Diana› I dare you to make a game that's MEANT to be played in that setting
14/01/2009 18:59:41 ‹Al the Yang› I will take that challenge
14/01/2009 18:59:41 ‹Cynthia› You mean Hush isn't?
14/01/2009 19:00:27 ‹Diab› whatever it might be it should have refreshments on the side
14/01/2009 19:01:09 ‹Jamie› it could be some sort of suntan-lotion-based strategy game
14/01/2009 19:01:18 ‹Diab› lol
14/01/2009 19:01:21 ‹pvd› point-based
14/01/2009 19:01:23 ‹Diana› sunburns as Pictionary medium?
14/01/2009 19:02:00 ‹Jamie› i think we have a winner
14/01/2009 19:02:11 ‹Diana› I immediately do not volunteer to playtest
14/01/2009 19:03:46 ‹EvidentManiac› Colors... not the game for the gizmondo...
14/01/2009 19:09:46 ‹s› where's _BLACK_
14/01/2009 19:09:48 ‹Jamie› that game beat the pants off mmrps
14/01/2009 19:09:50 ‹s› grr orange and pink t.t
14/01/2009 19:10:08 ‹Cynthia› Could get white to replace orange or pink. :[]:
14/01/2009 19:10:49 ‹Diana› or just cheat and hope nobody notices
14/01/2009 19:11:47 ‹Diab› I still like the movement in MMRPS
14/01/2009 19:12:23 ‹Jamie› but you need to be stubborn too...
14/01/2009 19:12:33 ‹Jamie› ...as team pink demonstrated
14/01/2009 19:22:35 ‹Diana› those are some terrifying girls
14/01/2009 19:27:17 ‹Diab› city as a game board
14/01/2009 19:29:08 ‹Jamie› The fascination with reappropriating city spaces for games... do we feel that alienated by our outer environment that "playing" there is a forbidden pleasure?
14/01/2009 19:29:33 ‹Diana› I'm not sure that the space is alienating, but the presence of others looking at you funny definitely is
14/01/2009 19:30:01 ‹Diana› My friends and I used to go sidewalk bowling on campus, but we only did it at night so we wouldn't be yelled at
14/01/2009 19:30:53 ‹Jamie› well that's true... public games are definitely a way to collect Stranger Shock
14/01/2009 19:31:24 ‹Diana› And sometimes official censure
14/01/2009 19:31:49 ‹Al the Yang› Does anyone have a link to that full quote?
14/01/2009 19:32:51 ‹Jamie› so is manhole minigolf a mid-twenties version of boundary testing? "you never told me I COULDN'T do this"
14/01/2009 19:33:15 ‹Diana› It's probably a mix of that and the same joy that comes from things like parkour
14/01/2009 19:33:28 ‹Diana› Finding new ways to use the same, boring spaces we always inhabit
14/01/2009 19:33:29 ‹logan› for a sec i thought you were talking about the roaring 20s
14/01/2009 19:34:25 ‹Diab› I see it as an act of activism
14/01/2009 19:34:38 ‹Diab› recaliming a sanctioned public space
14/01/2009 19:34:52 ‹Diab› reclaiming ^_^
14/01/2009 19:36:31 ‹Diab› in addition to injecting a sense of whimsey to cities where britalist modern architecture dehumanizes and compartmentalizes life
14/01/2009 19:37:09 ‹Diana› I dunno, these days architecture looks more like playground equipment than it does architecture, at least in my mind
14/01/2009 19:38:43 ‹Diab› this is more of a formal approach than an experiential/spatial one
14/01/2009 19:38:45 ‹EvidentManiac› In SimCity 2000, I made a straight grid across atotally flatland, except for one corner that was a pyramid of hydroelectric plants.
14/01/2009 19:39:00 ‹s› i strongly recommend Playing to Win
14/01/2009 19:39:06 ‹s› as well as The Art of Learning by Josh Waitzkin
14/01/2009 19:39:16 ‹s› awesome discussions of creative expression through competitive gaming
14/01/2009 19:41:21 ‹EvidentManiac› Sirlin's book is okay. I'm a big fan of straight up Book of Five Rings...
14/01/2009 19:42:12 ‹s› What is that?
14/01/2009 19:42:20 ‹s› And Sirlin seriously let me down when he talked about starcraft T.T
14/01/2009 19:42:31 ‹EvidentManiac› Miyamoto Musashi's Book of Five Rings
14/01/2009 19:43:11 ‹EvidentManiac› Also. Gamestar would be a fantastic last name for a cartoon character.
14/01/2009 19:43:24 ‹EvidentManiac› "I'm Griffus Gamestar!" *pose*
14/01/2009 19:46:57 ‹Jamie› six schools of gamestar: rules, chaos, storytelling, collecting, action, combat
14/01/2009 19:47:12 ‹Jamie› interesting taxonomy
14/01/2009 19:47:28 ‹EvidentManiac› Flashes of Sims Carnival (which wasn't one of my fave things from last year's GDC...)
14/01/2009 19:49:57 ‹miker› pew pew
14/01/2009 19:50:51 ‹Jamie› NO IT HAS TO BE PATROL
14/01/2009 19:50:57 ‹Diana› I DEMAND CHAOS
14/01/2009 19:51:15 ‹Diab› I second that
14/01/2009 19:51:42 ‹Jamie› we (the imd) are so awesome at yelling at each other
14/01/2009 19:51:52 ‹Jamie› if i was still a third grade teacher we would all be in time out
14/01/2009 19:52:12 ‹Diab› does agreeing with a yell count?
14/01/2009 19:52:19 ‹Diana› what would collective timeout accomplish?
14/01/2009 19:52:41 ‹Diana› I mean, at that point you just transported the situation to another part of the room, and added dunce caps
14/01/2009 19:53:17 ‹Jamie› but the dunce caps do help
14/01/2009 19:53:39 ‹Diana› True. Head-jousting.
14/01/2009 20:02:21 ‹EvidentManiac› new formalism
14/01/2009 20:03:23 ‹EvidentManiac› http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Pinker
14/01/2009 20:06:08 ‹Jamie› so would it be wrong to think of an "age of games" as being about the democratization (and balkanization) of rules?
14/01/2009 20:06:38 ‹Jamie› i.e. you proceed through the world through small, often temporary rule sets?
14/01/2009 20:06:51 ‹Diab› I see it more of a growing trend of violations of those rules
14/01/2009 20:07:03 ‹Diana› Maybe not violation, but learning to bend them or use them to your advantage
14/01/2009 20:07:07 ‹Diana› "game the system" etc.
14/01/2009 20:07:24 ‹Jamie› ok, so it's about understanding how to play AROUND rules
14/01/2009 20:07:30 ‹Diab› either way it's considered a transgression by rulle setters
14/01/2009 20:07:44 ‹Diana› I think so, yes. It's about rules not being sanctified anymore.
14/01/2009 20:07:50 ‹Jamie› so, the mortgage crisis is an early failure of the ludic age?
14/01/2009 20:08:07 ‹Jamie› or the credit crisis, more accurately
14/01/2009 20:08:23 ‹s› hedge funds played around with the idea of creating money out of thin air
14/01/2009 20:08:27 ‹s› didn't work so well T.T
14/01/2009 20:08:32 ‹Diana› Well, I'm not so sure. Was that people bending the rules, or just not following any rules at all?
14/01/2009 20:08:45 ‹Jamie› it was people gaming the system
14/01/2009 20:08:49 ‹Diab› I think in this context ethics of play become important
14/01/2009 20:09:02 ‹Jamie› finding loopholes that existed because of the general assumption that "
14/01/2009 20:09:15 ‹Jamie› "the market will look after its own interests"
14/01/2009 20:09:24 ‹Diana› Well, I think there was also an issue of not all the players knowing they were playing the game
14/01/2009 20:09:25 ‹Diab› considering what the winning conditions are and whether they're conscionable
14/01/2009 20:09:43 ‹Diana› I mean, some people were gaming the system and some were assuming that the rules were absolute
14/01/2009 20:09:48 ‹Diana› That will break any game
14/01/2009 20:09:51 ‹Jamie› true on both counts
14/01/2009 20:10:01 ‹Diab› It's interesting to note that role of rules in shaping norms as well
14/01/2009 20:10:20 ‹Diab› norms being the lubricant of social interaction
14/01/2009 20:10:30 ‹Diana› Also the violation of them
14/01/2009 20:10:42 ‹Diana› I mean, teenage rebellion is all about conforming by collectively breaking the adults' rules
14/01/2009 20:10:52 ‹Diana› And therefore developing your own new set of rules
14/01/2009 20:11:34 ‹Diab› I see it as a way of meaning forming
14/01/2009 20:11:45 ‹Diab› actions with consequences
14/01/2009 20:12:09 ‹Bill› I keep wondering: what is the difference between play and work?
14/01/2009 20:12:28 ‹EvidentManiac› For me, work is play.
14/01/2009 20:12:34 ‹miker› each is what keeps you from doing the other
14/01/2009 20:12:41 ‹Diana› Well put
14/01/2009 20:12:43 ‹Diab› it's socially contructed I think
14/01/2009 20:12:52 ‹Bill› ^_^
14/01/2009 20:12:59 ‹Diab› one i sconsidered worhtwhile while the other is a passtime
14/01/2009 20:13:07 ‹Jamie› If you are being asked to do it, it's work
14/01/2009 20:13:11 ‹miker› no, seriously, it all comes down to bolas' famous hats
14/01/2009 20:13:30 ‹Diab› in a game you're also asked to fullfil a task
14/01/2009 20:13:33 ‹logan› work has consequences outside the "magic circle"
14/01/2009 20:13:51 ‹Diana› I dunno. I avoid games like WoW precisely because they are too close to "work" for me.
14/01/2009 20:13:56 ‹Diana› So are they play, or are they work?
14/01/2009 20:13:59 ‹Jamie› don't get me started on the magic circle
14/01/2009 20:13:59 ‹logan› as do i
14/01/2009 20:14:13 ‹Cynthia› I believe the phrase is "no pain, no gain". >_>
14/01/2009 20:14:14 ‹logan› well i've heard ppl accuse WoW of being more addicting than fun
14/01/2009 20:14:16 ‹logan› which i would agree w/
14/01/2009 20:14:22 ‹EvidentManiac› My Puyo Puyo and Puzzle Fighter ability has far reaching consequences in the real world...
14/01/2009 20:14:27 ‹Diab› I think for the time being one of them pays the bills
14/01/2009 20:14:37 ‹Diana› Cynthia, depends on what you mean by gain ^_^
14/01/2009 20:15:27 ‹Cynthia› We could go on for ages about whether getting something, however meaningless in some contexts, is more or less rewarding when you "really have to work for it". :x
14/01/2009 20:15:33 ‹Diab› hence the 'for the time being'
14/01/2009 20:16:49 ‹Diana› Well I think that's it exactly. It's not about whether it's rewarding or not, because clearly it is. But as you say, it IS work.
14/01/2009 20:16:59 ‹Diana› So the question I would ask is, has it stopped being play then?
14/01/2009 20:17:32 ‹Diana› When it's no longer idly fun, but really intent and hard and purposeful, I'm not sure you're playing anymore
14/01/2009 20:17:38 ‹Al the Yang› I think that's the key point here, is when the line between work and play is crossed for someone in a game like WoW.
14/01/2009 20:18:15 ‹Diab› labor of love?
14/01/2009 20:19:02 ‹Jamie› if players were producing something tangible (and let's say positive) through their time in WoW, but didn't know it, would the hours they spent still be play?
14/01/2009 20:19:26 ‹logan› WoW should have a protein folding minigame
14/01/2009 20:19:41 ‹Diana› Sure. I mean, children can be taught skills, colors, all kinds of things, through play. And it's still play, even if there is also a tangible benefit.
14/01/2009 20:19:49 ‹Cynthia› There's an add-on that puts Bejeweled in WoW, I believe. I am not joking.
14/01/2009 20:19:59 ‹Diab› lol
14/01/2009 20:20:09 ‹Jamie› well that makes sense if you just think of WoW as a chatroom
14/01/2009 20:20:13 ‹logan› there is, i remember the level 70s kids here were pretty psyched about it
14/01/2009 20:20:18 ‹Jamie› which i think a fair % of peole do
14/01/2009 20:20:19 ‹Al the Yang› I think the experience would be the most positive thing produced while playing all games.
14/01/2009 20:21:12 ‹Cynthia› I think I will have hit an all time low if I ever picked up that add-on. XP (http://www.popcap.com/promos/wow/)
14/01/2009 20:21:27 ‹Cynthia› (oh good, scraper didn't take.)
14/01/2009 20:21:43 ‹Bill› My cooking is always an evocative knowledge object.
14/01/2009 20:21:52 ‹Al the Yang› Nice
14/01/2009 20:22:08 ‹Diana› I actually turned in food as an EKO in Bolas' class once.
14/01/2009 20:22:10 ‹EvidentManiac› Some people have quantum strangeness. Others the holy trinity. Eric has the relationship between rules and play.
14/01/2009 20:22:16 ‹Al the Yang› Yeah Browines.
14/01/2009 20:22:16 ‹Bill› Poker worker?
14/01/2009 20:22:27 ‹Diana› lol No, cupcakes.
14/01/2009 20:22:30 ‹Al the Yang› Oh
14/01/2009 20:22:42 ‹Jamie› That was the tastiest EKO ever
14/01/2009 20:22:46 ‹Al the Yang› Cupcakes are delicious too.
14/01/2009 20:27:12 ‹Dread› END