You have just entered room "imd." dread33sf: dead mouse gamegrrrl1 has entered the room. dread33sf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_Murray Porsimster has left the room. Porsimster has entered the room. pseudostereo has entered the room. pseudostereo: hi all gamegrrrl1 has left the room. pseudostereo: what chat is this??? imdbot has entered the room. pseudostereo: this is IMD - join us! kinojabber has entered the room. kinojabber: hello? pseudostereo: hello gamegrrrl1 has entered the room. LPaulmer has entered the room. gamegrrrl1 has left the room. pseudostereo: IMD ALL CAPS PLEASE trippywah has entered the room. gamegrrrl1 has entered the room. gamegrrrl1 has left the room. Porsimster: mine is lower case pseudostereo: quiet, jess Porsimster: :-) w01110111 has entered the room. w01110111: hey trippywah: so who hooked me up in here? marientina: me trippywah: ah ha! w01110111: ok, so yeah skanknpaul has entered the room. w01110111: dreaddddddd gamegrrrl1 has entered the room. annebalsamo has entered the room. gamegrrrl1: celia arrives? dread33sf: willster gamegrrrl1: she's in!!! marientina: we have janet murray as a guest today annebalsamo: tap tap, is this on? marientina: so behave gamegrrrl1: working.... w01110111: in virtualllllity PeggyWeil has entered the room. PeggyWeil: i'm here LPaulmer: http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~murray/ kinojabber: dueling powerpoints LPaulmer: http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~murray/hoh/tablecontents.html kinojabber: "The Crying Test" pseudostereo: how many people here have actually cried in front of paintings? Hokyman164: dear lord ff7 Hokyman164: that made me cry Hokyman164: but only because it was so freakin' terrible pseudostereo: doesn't count Hokyman164: ico! Hokyman164: :D mtuters has entered the room. marientina: but not further Hokyman164: EA makes lots of people cry ironman28@mac.com has entered the room. gamegrrrl1: True that! dread33sf: film envy marientina: and vice versa annebalsamo: the Crying Game: Coming Soon kinojabber: I think the game industry is suffering from emotion envy Hokyman164: because we're so hung up on fun? marientina: freudian analysis...forthcoming Hokyman164: we forget there are other emotions? pseudostereo: "I know all there is to know about the crying.... test?" marientina: i think poking is involved Hokyman164: titanic made me cry. that acting was scary. LPaulmer: tracy - i don't know why, the emotions expressed during mario kart far surpass anything my friends have expressed during a film pseudostereo: thank god for oscar wilde... dread33sf: manipulated? Like Private Ryan? Hokyman164: they're different kinds of emotions. LPaulmer: a movie has never resulted in me punching a dent into my floor marientina: my ex certainly used to be upset at losing playing medal gear LPaulmer: manipulation is a difficult line to walk when talking about story telling gamegrrrl1: What about tomagotchi? pseudostereo: if I were asking these questions, I'd be wondering more about emotion in music... pseudostereo: ...music can make you cry, and not just because it's sad gamegrrrl1: Isn't that kind of like a child dying? pseudostereo: music? kinojabber: that is a good point, a consistency of emotion. PeggyWeil: Perry, she was referring to tomagotchi darthjulian has entered the room. kinojabber: Games often take you from one level of engagement to another very quickly -- hard to maintain that consistency darthjulian has left the room. pseudostereo: oh Hokyman164: depends on the game LPaulmer: more so in post-modern society, yes? Hokyman164: some games move quickly, others move at a more stately pace LPaulmer: feel more manipulated that is, you are more aware of the media itself darthjulian has entered the room. pseudostereo: most times when movies make me cry I feel manipulated Hokyman164: well, that's what they're doing. :-) Hokyman164: 1983 pseudostereo: if I really feel moved I don't particularly feel like crying pseudostereo: it's more like getting chills up your spine, etc marientina: did you cry when you watched grizzly man? pseudostereo: embarassed to admit I missed it marientina: tsk tsk marientina: werner cried in his own flick pseudostereo: but herzog would be a good candidate for overwhelming emotion LPaulmer: planetfall - have to make a choice to sacrifice your friend in order to "win" gamegrrrl1: well then you feel guilt... gamegrrrl1: You feel culpable marientina: i was happy when i reached the princess in super mario but never sad if i didn't Hokyman164: this cry thing reminds me of the turing test LPaulmer: if we adapt to these emotions, will that change how we relate in the real world? PeggyWeil: Grizzly Man is a great example pseudostereo: if it's a turing test, then maybe the question should be "when will a computer convince us that IT is crying" Hokyman164: I'm not sure that everything has to be in the 3 act structure. Hokyman164: that's a bit limited to how story is done in film LPaulmer: josh - absolutely not! marientina: there was a bot i used to play with over bbs in the early 90's that made me feel guilty all the time - or wait was that my mom? w01110111: mombot Hokyman164: I like the 3 act structure and it certainly can be done in games. It's just that you can do all sorts of other interesting and effective things too with story. Hokyman164: stuff you can't do in film marientina: do gamblers cry when they lose? LPaulmer: true, but we can't just throw away the knowledge we've accrued about storytelling over the last few thousand years pseudostereo: sure LPaulmer: a three act structure is part of that Hokyman164: of course not Hokyman164: we learn from it and see how we can alter it LPaulmer: gamblers cry when they lose because the consequences relate to the real world Hokyman164: it's just nice to know it's not the only way we have to do things anymore. :-) marientina: many games don't have any of this connection from level to level - it is boom boom and you're done Hokyman164: well, most games don't focus on story Hokyman164: usually it's create a mechanic, then throw a story around it annebalsamo: I think Brenda Laurel had a similar thing to say re: the theatrical possibilities of the computer as stage.. pseudostereo: there's a side of gambling where they actually want to lose... trippywah has left the room. annebalsamo: ..problem with BL's work is her innovation of a classicist paradigm of theatricallity....I think gaming design is going to invent new paradigms of emotionality... marientina: it was interesting to hear tracy on tuesday say that the more successful the mechanics are in a gaim to carry emotion, the less story you need marientina: i think that is profound pseudostereo: isn't the 3 act thing pretty classical? gamegrrrl1: well it has to do with the relationship between story and agency Hokyman164: developing story isn't a strong point of the game industry :-( gamegrrrl1: We tend to thikn of theater in terms of the proscenium arch.. gamegrrrl1: in terms of story TELLING gamegrrrl1: but story PLAYING is a different type of operation annebalsamo: that was BL's limit...the proscenium arch as a necessary element.... LPaulmer: really? i think the avant-garde theatre movement redefined the way we think of theater Porsimster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dramatic_structure Hokyman164: well, there's still a teller of a story. Hokyman164: it just happens to be the designer who's doing the telling. Hokyman164: of course, there's also generative story as well Hokyman164: in which the gamer is the storyteller so to speak gamegrrrl1: But in a game like The Sims, the player is conspiring with the designer annebalsamo: contemporary performance theory where the audience/actor/stage gets reconfigured is a more promising (in my mind) vector of analysi skanknpaul has left the room. PeggyWeil: http://www.ontological.com/ gamegrrrl1: but I think there's someting fundamentally different between TELLING a story and PLAYING it pseudostereo: good link peggy, makes me wish I was in NYC Hokyman164: my only concern about all of this is that people don't shut out any one thing about stories in games. LPaulmer: agency + exploration -> a kaleidescopic view gamegrrrl1: And yes avant-garde theater has definitely played along this edge dread33sf: Jim Banister: storytelling (telling a story); storyforming (designing engines that allows a user to form stories); and storydwelling (designing experiences that allow participants to "live" a story, actually or virtually). PeggyWeil: enough to cry? LPaulmer: games help us see thing through different ways Hokyman164: I don't like it when people say "Well players should only be the ones creating stories" Hokyman164: or "Designers should only be the ones creating stories" skanknpaul has entered the room. Hokyman164: hey Deus Ex! Hokyman164: /me ears prick up jmora711 has entered the room. LPaulmer: the question that most designers STILL aren't asking is "why do I want to tell this story through interactivity? LPaulmer: " marientina: so designers tend to be trained someone else's story but can one say that an artist if trained to tell their own story has different requirements in making their game? LPaulmer: how is BEING Superman different than reading a series of painted panels about him? Hokyman164: or "how can I best tell this story through interactivity?" jmora711: because we can invite the player to create their own point of view of the story? pseudostereo: being superman would be different pseudostereo: being superman in a game might not be so different jmora711: constructive interaction where the player could build their own narrative and through it creating new rules that could make sense mtuters: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=986048 kinojabber: I think one of the problems with creating better dramatic experiences is that we need to train ourselves to be better players ... to notice all of these nuances, differences, possible choices, etc. LPaulmer: superman isn't about flying.... it's about an estranged boy, handling the responsibility of power, etc... but will the game communicate these themes originally intended by the story teller? ironman28@mac.com: I agree, Tracy -- we talk about cinema as a naturalized experience, but the codes of reading film also have to be learned jmora711: as the game has rules LPaulmer: Interaction can REINFORCE Immersion Hokyman164: making people want to do things through interactivity is much like making people want to continue watching things in film through visuals jmora711: interactive narrative and constructive interaction through multisensorial and mimetic interfaces would be great for a physicall and psychollogical immersion pseudostereo: mmm, not sure she's really representing what ML Ryan actually said in her book - I thought it was more a critique of how OTHER people had denigrated immersion as 'passive' and conflicting with interactivity... LPaulmer: "inventing the medium" LPaulmer: look for it in stores soon LPaulmer: representing the world in term of behaviors LPaulmer: we are now at a point in which we can do that, in a way we have never been able to before PeggyWeil: Invent the conventions Hokyman164: I don't see how we couldn't have done it before. I just think we're now at a time where we're finally becoming aware of it. gamegrrrl1: But also the conventions are a dialog with the audience gamegrrrl1: Some things end up being convnetions, others don't annebalsamo: i think we actually "author" the medium, inventing has a different connotation... annebalsamo: join the crowd pseudostereo: I would ask where the concept of defamiliarization fit into all of this... annebalsamo: tell me about it Hokyman164: I suppose it's more "adding to previous media" Hokyman164: don't know if there's a word for that. LPaulmer: new media is SO 82 PeggyWeil: I like invent...I'll have to think about why LPaulmer: Mine article on interactive design, 2003 PeggyWeil: Where's Andrew? Hokyman164: well, I consider what we're doing with media to be expanding media. annebalsamo: channelling mcLuhan....invent connotes something entirely new...but there are no real inventions....just clever innovations...imho gamegrrrl1: http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/770000/769955/p11-mine.pdf?key1=769955&key2=7806531411&coll=GUIDE&dl=ACM&CFID=70342983&CFTOKEN=740236 gamegrrrl1: (sorry it's so long) LPaulmer: Disney rides are developed by multi-disciplinary teams, if a game company was structured that way, the games would automatically get better annebalsamo: i like the term author the medium becuase, qua mcluhan, every medium is a reworked earlier medium, it is authored anew LPaulmer: you have people thinking about story telling at every level Hokyman164: well, I wouldn't say that. but it would certainly put more out-of-the-box thinking into the equation pseudostereo: I can agree that a cannon should always do something... I just think it gets a little boring if it always shoots cannonballs... mtuters: also here mtuters: portal.acm.org/ft_gateway.cfm?id=950589&type=pdf LPaulmer: even something as simple as level design, if done by an architect, would improve PeggyWeil: that makes sense, but I still veer towards design because I think about form... Hokyman164: or writing done by people who actually write (authors, screenwriters, etc) w01110111 has left the room. LPaulmer: perry - establishing rules and breaking them is always a very powerful tool PeggyWeil: The Game was inspired by a novel... annebalsamo: design the medium...yes, yes, yes ironman28@mac.com: why do the safety features on the Holodeck always fail? PeggyWeil: safe danger pseudostereo: kellee I'm just not sure it's always so exactly binary PeggyWeil: media designers LPaulmer: hm, maybe i didn't understand your canonball example then marientina: do we assume that people are gullible a little too much? annebalsamo: the connotation of media designers takes the "media" as already designed....your earlier assertion, design the medium, reverses the object and agent PeggyWeil: thus the entertainment value of a human shot from a cannon gamegrrrl1: I like what Tracy says gamegrrrl1: A lot of games are about power LPaulmer: is crying over fake people dying gullible? pseudostereo: I just mean that we don't have to understand everything in terms of rules and transgression gamegrrrl1: That seems to be a major emotion gamegrrrl1: Winning, power gamegrrrl1: control marientina: i think that by assuming we will convince people to behave a certain way we miss the mark PeggyWeil: yes, I didn't like it after I wrote it - designing, yes marientina: behave or feel marientina: same as in the movies marientina: in the movies we say something is just a bit too 'heavy handed' pseudostereo: is power an emotion? LPaulmer: uh oh, another celia/erin battle is on LPaulmer: remember last year's bernie presentation? mtuters has left the room. LPaulmer: no essential game LPaulmer: ex: ring around the rosy sachercreative@mac.com has entered the room. sachercreative@mac.com: Hello everyone annebalsamo: http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.htm LPaulmer: we were just discussing pirates of the carribean kinojabber: john von neumann said that chess is not a game -- because their is an optimal strategy PeggyWeil: I'm crushed kinojabber: let's hold hands ... Porsimster: that wasn't pirates - that was an experience where you got to fire back Porsimster: larry gertz talked about it last year pseudostereo: tracy, then wouldn't the game of chess be finding that optimal strategy? Hokyman164: GAMITUDE! gamegrrrl1: Dude! kinojabber: i didn't say i agreed with him ... LPaulmer: here you go, peggy: LPaulmer: http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.htm gamegrrrl1: What is the optimal strategy for Ring Round Rosie? pseudostereo: falling down at the same time as everyone else LPaulmer: haha don't get your toes stepped on! PeggyWeil: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_around_the_rosie PeggyWeil: Tracy: what was the assignment? (for Erin's paper) annebalsamo: "The more likely explanation is to be found in the religious ban on dancing among many Protestants in the nineteenth century.... gamegrrrl1: Everyone read Caillios gamegrrrl1: He calls it Vertigo pseudostereo: isn't a dog fetching a game? LPaulmer: thinking the same thing gamegrrrl1: Roger Caillios, Man Play and Games skanknpaul has left the room. gamegrrrl1: The follow up to Homo Ludens gamegrrrl1: Defines vertigo as one of the 4 types of games LPaulmer: celia - yes, thanks, couldn't remember where that came from PeggyWeil: I am not alone in the universe PeggyWeil: even if it seems like it ironman28@mac.com: I thought peek-a-boo was a fort-da thing PeggyWeil: the only person in the room who is probably playing peek a boo... ironman28@mac.com: we play fort-da LPaulmer: Tracy and Chris now teach classes in "Join Attentional Scenes" PeggyWeil: you are providing a relationship more than you're providing a hidden object experience pseudostereo: humor must have something to do with this also - the ability to see that something is funny... LPaulmer: the benefits are self in relationship to others, prespectival thinking, and instruction PeggyWeil: the ability to share an "unexpected" perspective is an important function of humor PeggyWeil: humor is community building: get it? pseudostereo: yes gamegrrrl1: http://robotic.media.mit.edu/ sachercreative@mac.com has left the room. LPaulmer: are kids communicating with the puppet, or the puppeteer? PeggyWeil: anthropomorphism is an involuntary suspension of disbelief Hokyman164: kellee: is that along the same lines of are people playing with the game, or the designer? ironman28@mac.com: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/4.01/turkle.html LPaulmer: josh - it was the metaphor peggy posed Hokyman164: ah LPaulmer: of course, in a horror movie, you scream "dont' go there!" not "director - cut the movie here!" annebalsamo: games as learning for living? jmora711: a therapeutic value jmora711: for angry jmora711: for sharing jmora711: for developing different kind of social skills PeggyWeil: is it fair to say we take positive values out of games but not (politically incorrect advisory) negative values? LPaulmer: it is theorized that the way boys play growing up helps prepare them for the business world LPaulmer: toughens them up pseudostereo: peggy, why would that be the case? Hokyman164: we can take negative values out of virtually anything... LPaulmer: we learn from playing with each other, the same way dogs play fight with each other to prepare for actual battle jmora711: if children play a MMOG and people do not like their behaviour they could think twice about it pseudostereo: there's no point to cheating at solitaire... PeggyWeil: you never cheated at solitaire? Hokyman164: depends on what you get out of winning solitaire pseudostereo: I didn't say that, I just said there's no point LPaulmer: hah. i've done it, but it doesn't mean there was a ptoin! PeggyWeil: the point is winning! marientina: is it? marientina: always? LPaulmer: but winning is defined by the rules LPaulmer: if you cheat to win, you don't actually win pseudostereo: it's incredibly unsatisfying to win solitaire by cheating marientina: what about the selfish gene theory? marientina: we can't all survive jmora711: for a bipolar person could be that is why I try to keep it simple and focus although not rigth now PeggyWeil: when you cheat at solitaire - the point is getting the pattern in order, getting everything in place even though the doorbell is ringing... Hokyman164: I play solitaire (at least windows solitaire) to diffuse nervousness. Hokyman164: so winning isn't all that important to me marientina: i abandon solitaire all the time annebalsamo: cheating at solitaire is quite common for obsessive-compulsive people...who just want the "doneness" of the deal....all the cards lined up in some order marientina: but i find that many games don't let you just bow out marientina: or even better pass on the torch pseudostereo: I don't play solitaire because I know I'll usually lose PeggyWeil: I haven't played solitaire for decades, I'm not even sure I know how PeggyWeil: anymore Hokyman164: I also play solitaire mahjongg to clear out my mind, helps me sleep at night. Doesn't matter if I win that or not either. marientina: i don't want to be the last woman standing in any game - i don't care annebalsamo: peggy, didn't mean to imply that you are oc. :-o kinojabber: what really interests me is the way in which traditional games are started -- usually there is an instigator and then there are the invitees. gamegrrrl1: like a backchannel kinojabber: That whole negotiation is fascinating. pseudostereo: exactly marientina: but that is a meme rather than a game gamegrrrl1: well remember setting up the backchannel gamegrrrl1: Wasn't that sort of like deciding where and how to play hide and seek? kinojabber: And the instigator is often the one who knows the games, knows the rules, etc. and is most interested in keeping them. gamegrrrl1: Ho will be "IT"? pseudostereo: the backchannel is definitely a game Hokyman164: really? PeggyWeil: it's a conversation Hokyman164: I feel like it's more a tool of interaction. kinojabber: its a conversion pseudostereo: a conversation is a kind of game marientina: virtual playing hooky Hokyman164: like it could be a game. marientina: (sp) gamegrrrl1: but it takes place with a set of ocnstraints Hokyman164: I suppose I can violate all sorts of rules that we agree upon when coming onto here to speak. gamegrrrl1: And also the game of multitasking Hokyman164: such as say something really offensive marientina: i am starting to feel nauseated at the repetition of the word 'game' PeggyWeil: \ Porsimster: but there are real world consequences gamegrrrl1: marientina you are in the wrong job! marientina: we have three tracks in this program you know Hokyman164: true. I could get a lot of people angry at me. LPaulmer: it's "join attentional scenes" people! gamegrrrl1: LP joint attentional scene gamegrrrl1: very good! gamegrrrl1: only ADD style attention pseudostereo: the problem is that everything is a kind of game, but it all gets a little meaningless to say so marientina: exactly Hokyman164: it goes along the same lines of art Hokyman164: saying "what is art" marientina: i feel that we are in that kind of chat PeggyWeil: Wittgenstein again... Hokyman164: the problem is, it's an important question to ask :/ gamegrrrl1: "all the world's a game, the men and women only players' marientina: so screw nature? marientina: we're not alone on this planet LPaulmer: yeah, but we KNOW we're in a game pseudostereo: I wish everyone had read that article in Harper's that I blogged last month about players... pseudostereo: .. it brought in a whole political dimension marientina: ha pseudostereo: it was about the difference between workers and players PeggyWeil: I read it - players as belonging - privileged gamegrrrl1: http://interactive.usc.edu/members/phoberman/archives/006111.html pseudostereo: yep Hokyman164: kellee: just like we KNOW we're looking at or experiencing art? Hokyman164: it's really not that simple, I think. LPaulmer: on of the most pervasive pseudostereo: good finish marientina: as someone has said, art is like porn: you know it is what it is when you see it but the boundaries differ per invidividual...same goes for games LPaulmer: after the response to thx-1138, lucas said "all you need to make an emotional movie is the put a bunch of kittene in a box, and shoot that" Hokyman164: yeah. It's more of a personal thing LPaulmer: "it's not hard" annebalsamo has left the room. LPaulmer: so he made "american grafitti," which was his "kittens in a box" movie pseudostereo: did he mean shoot them with a camera or with a gun? LPaulmer: haha with a camera pseudostereo: a gun might have been more effective LPaulmer: sorry pseudostereo: for tears, that is LPaulmer: true! LPaulmer: i think he was addressing that universality/cliche question, though, on a base level LPaulmer: what is story telling, and what is manipulation pseudostereo: yeah, it really defines him that he was smart enough to say that, and then go ahead with his particular career choices... pseudostereo: ...anyway LPaulmer: indeed LPaulmer: he realized kittens in a box bring you BANK jmora711: I would say what make us cry and them killing then in an appropriate game, sometimes killing avatars, something embracing them. I am feeling like crying. For me it was a great conference lecture pseudostereo: you can't go home again... marientina: eeeek darthjulian has left the room. Hokyman164: eeek is right marientina: hence my obsession with zuma marientina: the storyless game pseudostereo: games for cleaning out the mind gamegrrrl1: or messing it up marientina: hmmm....brushing my teeth before sleeping is meditative marientina: maybe i am less complicated than i thought marientina: zoom out gamegrrrl1: another argument in favor of the backchannel Hokyman164: ah, zuma. the second most successful casual game Hokyman164: first being luxor gamegrrrl1: the more distracted you are the better decisions you make pseudostereo: the backchannel... the unconscious of 511 jmora711: The ideal is to feel at home, a functional one for sure in everywhere. I love to explore new spaces so I hope to keep traveling and feeling empathy to different societies and sub societies