You have just entered room "imd." skanknpaul: hola DarkLinkSF: hello, Jericho MagicM7658 has entered the room. jah161274: hmm harljas has entered the room. jah161274: the new mike brinker? jah161274: so erik, does this mean no more Halo 2? DarkLinkSF: I was never a big Halo 2 guy DarkLinkSF: more of a Halo 1 guy DarkLinkSF: 8-) jah161274: I <3 Halo 2 DarkLinkSF: I <3 Halomari? anthonyk323 has entered the room. dread33sf: yo annebalsamo has entered the room. jah161274: yo jericho1ne has left the room. michaelnaimark: macneal lehrer story at http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/entertainment/july-dec05/video_10-11.html mtuters has entered the room. DarkLinkSF: Dumb question DarkLinkSF: what's the fastest way to determine if I have a 802.11g compliant card? jah161274: what is this guy's name? lpaulmer: guy who jah161274: Jay somebody? jah161274: the guy scott is talking about lpaulmer: Jay Riddle jah161274: ah lpaulmer: spell that one? jah161274: ZKM michaelnaimark: zkm.de jah161274: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZKM jah161274: (inadequate page) marientina has entered the room. marientina: make sure that im-g is higher on your network connection priority list so that you stay connected to im-g. otherwise you will flip back to im. jah161274: process note: I can't get laptop 6 to project from my laptop. lpaulmer: it's prolly not hooked up to anything lpaulmer: as of Mon night, only laptop 7 was actually connected jah161274: okay jah161274: maybe better for andreas's concentration jah161274: he's going to show DVDs harljas: directing interests and inclinations jah161274: what is interesting about using the computer in his artistic work? jah161274: is it more like a pencil, a general tool? or a specific type of contribution? jah161274: he tested this by working with rule-based systems in hermetically-sealed space harljas: we'll see what rules were DarkLinkSF: Hold on a sec, L-System link forthcoming jah161274: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-systems DarkLinkSF: Chojo uses them jah161274: ah DarkLinkSF: good for modeling plants, etc DarkLinkSF: they can also be used to model cities, rivers, etc harljas: could be applied to flickr? jah161274: howso, Jason? harljas: rules on tagged data jah161274: growth of folksonomy jah161274: how to explore a setting that ranges from the very clearly tightly crafted narrative harljas: presentation of folksonomy jah161274: to the other end of the field, where the narrative erodes, and becomes a more ... pathway harljas: ya mtuters: on the tagging note, physical metadata: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/physicalmetadata skanknpaul: what was the name of the book again? mtuters: history of forgetting mtuters: norm klien mtuters: http://www.calarts.edu/schools/critical_studies/faculty/klein_norman.html mtuters: his student used to call him "the normado" dread33sf: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1859841759/002-7886418-5960013?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance skanknpaul: what a legend! mtuters: http://interactive.usc.edu/archives/001762.html skanknpaul has left the room. mtuters: his newest book: http://www.thenewpress.com/books/vatican.htm jah161274: is this a true story? skanknpaul has entered the room. mtuters: no ironman28@mac.com has entered the room. DarkLinkSF: Steve, what was the name of the software that Annenberg recommended for interactive Database cinema? DarkLinkSF: you gave us a demo last year? ironman28@mac.com: Korsakow DarkLinkSF: thanks ironman28@mac.com: http://www.korsakow.com/ksy skanknpaul has left the room. DarkLinkSF: That's a pretty sharp composition ironman28@mac.com: The guy who designed it, Florian Thalhofer, at University of the Arts in Berlin is friends with Andreas DarkLinkSF: Ah, ok... DarkLinkSF: Do you think this was authored using it? ironman28@mac.com: No, but Korsakow was created in Director ironman28@mac.com: It's much more limited than what Andreas has done here jah161274: what was this created in? ironman28@mac.com: Director DarkLinkSF: Ok, that's the impression I got mtuters: fascinating read on bunker hill: http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~broglio/1101/davis.html jah161274: oh, right - I went to the first Database Cinema 499 this semester; Andreas said we're all going to be using Director and it was sort of a funny moment jah161274: there was class talk about alternatives, some futzing around skanknpaul has entered the room. jah161274: didn't seem to be too many people who knew or liked the software jah161274: this demo makes it look powerful annebalsamo: what was funny about the reference to director? FireIce104 has entered the room. jah161274: well, no one was like, "Yah! Director!" annebalsamo: just curious... jah161274: and we had spent two semesters last year learning Flash, so it was a funny thing to hear, let's use something else. jah161274: plus there was some harrumphing about potential upgrades away from the director product, and towards other products in the adobe lineup jah161274: andreas did a "raise your hands if you know director" call DarkLinkSF: This definitely has a Documentary feel.. jah161274: and there was like 1/5 hands raised DarkLinkSF: but probably mostly because of the black and white still images lpaulmer: Director is still king of video, right? jah161274: yah, the overlapping of different b/w images is nice DarkLinkSF: well, and the narrator lpaulmer: that's the argument? jah161274: i think so - and flash doesn't do 3d as well as flash lpaulmer: ? jah161274: but it hasn't been updated and expanded as much as flash recently it seems DarkLinkSF: flash doesn't do 3D as well as director jah161274: and it doesn't have the panache of max/msp/jitter, it seems jah161274: oops - thanks erik lpaulmer: no not at all annebalsamo: the thing that director offers is the ability to talk to other kinds of devices, ie., printers, different displays...it helps us get off the desktop and into the world...limited as it is in many ways lpaulmer: it just stinks; it feels like those of us without the skills are in a holding pattern until one tool finally encompasses more of what the other can do ironman28@mac.com: I don't think you could do a project like this in Flash lpaulmer: ah interesting point, anne marientina has left the room. jah161274: right - it's hard to think of a single program to teach incoming IMD students DarkLinkSF: Well dread33sf: overlappoing the images is not an easy task - andreas figured out a way to use the built in fade function in camcorders to fade back and forth from the prestored still image and the actaul scene. lpaulmer: yes, and the two are so different DarkLinkSF: I think it's important that people practice simple coding DarkLinkSF: variables, loops, if/then jah161274: scott - that sounds like an epic kludge. dread33sf: brilliant kludge jah161274: Processing? MaxMSP? Flash? Director? C#? DarkLinkSF: They're all very similar harljas: agree with erik - simple coding will transcend tools jah161274: right but what's the best framework to teach students to get them to complete their future 499 homework DarkLinkSF: some tools are better at hiding the underlying code, for better or for worse jah161274: I think we were taught flash so we could use it as a prototyping tool jah161274: but I'm using PowerPoint (gasp) a whole lot more DarkLinkSF: Right, but that's because of our current classes... You woudn't prototype in power point, but it's good for presentations FireIce104: i agree that code gives versatility, but accessibility is the argument for tools. It shouldn't be that you're spending all your time in the nuts and bolts of the process. You should be spending your time and your energy creating. mtuters: david byrne espouses powerpoint as a tool for artistic expression ashleyyork25 has entered the room. annebalsamo: i story board in powerpoint DarkLinkSF: My argument is that all the tinkering around finding the right button to press usually translates to two or three lines of code ashleyyork25: i think an overview of what all of those tools can do would have been incredibly useful jah161274: in spite of my urge to "keep it real" i see myself using tools like powerpoint more than any flash/director/maxmsp/etc after school jah161274: powerpoint and final cut pro MagicM7658: i agree with jesse the whole point of these programs to to cut back on the coding ashleyyork25: opposed to just jumping in and learning one because it suits a course syllabus DarkLinkSF: accessibility is usually lost under a pile of widgets lpaulmer: ahsley - like a survey of interactive media class? ashleyyork25: indeed jah161274: that would be a nice first-semester class jah161274: an introduction to the range of tools DarkLinkSF: Ashley - knowing what the tools do is different from knowing how to use them lpaulmer: yes, so at least everyone would have a vocabulary DarkLinkSF: a lot of people know what photoshop can do DarkLinkSF: but making it do it is considerably harder jah161274: right, erik, but seeing Mirage http://www.bauhaussoftware.com/2D_Animation.php might turn some people on irrevockably. lpaulmer: erik - yes of course, but knowing what is out there is key jah161274: (for example) FireIce104: case in point: screenwriting software is a great tool that reduces word processing formatting comands down to a few keystrokes so you can concentrate on your writing skanknpaul has left the room. jah161274: and USC students can get free high-calibre screenwriting software jah161274: I wonder - who is the audience for this DVD-Rom? dread33sf: need to foreground that question later mtuters: hot roasted lambs head! ashleyyork25: that is what is trickey about these types of projects jah161274: right ashleyyork25: they are so unique, yet there is really not an audience jah161274: I could see this being kiosk-ware in some civic building lpaulmer: a civic building? FireIce104: i would be VERy interested in discussing what could be the most mainstream application of this type of thing jah161274: a library, a city hall... ashleyyork25: non-fiction nerds, like myself, love this type of stuff, yet i never would have known about it (despite it being available on amazon) had i not landed in this field of research annebalsamo: maybe they think about these as art pieces rather than experiences designed for a particular audience....rarely do artists stipulate an audience, no? lpaulmer: it feels like that is a marketing issue FireIce104: i think artists most definitely choose an audience ashleyyork25: that's a great point anne ironman28@mac.com: There's not much out there that is as dense and sophisticated as this -- Labyrinth in almost unique annebalsamo: much art remains unknown, as you know.... jah161274: jesse - I think most artists feel compelled to speak lpaulmer: no, artists... pure artists are interested in the act of expression, not communication jah161274: some have an understanding of markets and advance their work that way lpaulmer: or i should say, the former more than the latter jah161274: but many work from a primal need to speak lpaulmer: justin - agreed dread33sf: would/could this be marketed in a game fomat better? ironman28@mac.com: Labyrinth is doing games now annebalsamo: i'm not sure about the artist-audience assertion....i definitely think that a ccritical distinction between an artist and a designer is PRECISELY tied to the presence or absense of a concept of an audience dread33sf: having a similar disucsison about viola project lpaulmer: anne - GOOD artists, yes ;-) FireIce104: Scott, I would say that if you were marketing this in game format it would need more structured dramatic content skanknpaul has entered the room. DarkLinkSF: well, or a challenge or interactive hook lpaulmer: i think more interesting in the game comparison is as part of the interaction design - making meaningful choices jah161274: or an objective? FIND THE SEEKRIT CLUES TO UNLOCK THE REAL LOS ANGELES dread33sf: right lpaulmer: so many databse narratives; i feel like my choices aren't meaningful DarkLinkSF: Where's that damn blue key? FireIce104: agree annebalsamo: this is not to say that artists don't have to worry about funding for their projects....audience comes in at the stage of funding, but not in the conception of the project....postmodernists, ala Koons, et.al. contradict this though dread33sf: but is that the expected experience from a younger audience? lpaulmer: i think everyone wants their choice to be meaningful jah161274: right, but a postmodern artist like tracy emin doesn't seem to have too much audience on her mind, at least not more than her will to free herself from painful memory or expound her obsessions. jah161274: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracey_Emin ironman28@mac.com: http://www.whitecube.com/html/artists/tre/tre_frset.html dread33sf: have heard many responses to this kind of work as "old school" michaelnaimark: if it's interactive, audience cannot be ignored. if it's not interactive, audience can be ignored. harljas: seems hard to understand without navigating myself or seeing the rulesets in action jah161274: we should have Erik navigate Andreas's DVD DarkLinkSF: "Do Pushups" harljas: yah jah161274: haha jah161274: yeah ironman28@mac.com: that's funny, Scott -- since it is too "new school" for most in academia jah161274: too bad! stuck in between FireIce104: but it has a definite "when CD-ROMS were just coming out" feel to the interaction DarkLinkSF: Well, superficially it looks like a video photomontage lpaulmer: film is sooo "old school" FireIce104: I had a CD-ROM like this as a kid about the San Diego Zoo jah161274: film? is that like video? dread33sf: well, those were mostly "artists'" comments mtuters: "The persistence of thousands of street people on the fringes of Bunker Hill and the Civic Center tarnishes the image of designer living Downtown" m davis annebalsamo: that's why there is lots of bad "interactive art"....no conception of audience, or methodology for considering audience in creating the interface skanknpaul: beaudry! lpaulmer: seriously, though, i think that's what gives it that "old school" field... using existing media in different ways as opposse to inventing new media jah161274: what is new media, but pieces of old media? ironman28@mac.com: There's no "audience" -- no "market" for any academic work jah161274: the web is definitely like that - text and pictures, strung together with links jah161274: new structures, old thoughts skanknpaul: there's a great El Savadorian restaraunt on Beaudry and Temple (near the image) jah161274: old thoughts + new structure = new thoughts DarkLinkSF: Well, simply the audience is people interested in Los Angeles circa 1920's? ashleyyork25: or people interested in exploring spaces that that would not ordinarily explore annebalsamo: what was the date on this piece? i think we need to keep the historical context of the time of its production in mind when analyzing it harljas: audience here? if you could control with remote control could be a fun lean back activity lpaulmer: wasn't it last year? ironman28@mac.com: 2003 I think DarkLinkSF: Uh, maybe I misused the term circa jah161274: yah - I was thinking this is couch media more than computer DarkLinkSF: interested in Los Angeles history ashleyyork25: published in june 2003 dread33sf: desktop click through seems to be losing interest for many jah161274: maybe a constraint of being 2 years old FireIce104: yeah, that's a limitation... does anyone know if the nextgen HD DVDs are going to have more functionality? annebalsamo: and designed/planned earlier than that....maybe a year earlier...2000-2002? jah161274: if they can sort out the format wars FireIce104: the format wars are all but lost - there will be two jah161274: this is a work that creates its own audience? jah161274: the dream of voyager co. lpaulmer: what about a PSP version jah161274: there you go jah161274: I'm immediately hot for that DarkLinkSF: how does this compete with Twisted Metal for PSP? jah161274: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Voyager_Company harljas: yeah psp click through would be fun while wandering around lpaulmer: can take it with you, a good medium for vascillating between interaction and passive moods dread33sf: psp experience tied to location? jah161274: click through? this seems more like "scroll through" jah161274: right harljas: ya annebalsamo: maybe the people who would be the audience for this don''t want to be audiences, they want to be creators...i know that's my problem these days...i'm an impatient audience member lpaulmer: oh fun - walk around the area while carrying it around jah161274: yah Anne - I know that feeling. It's tough to watch high-end interactive art without thinking, "where's the toolset? I want to see how this works." harljas: so he should publish the tools - ( to creator audience) jah161274: if you want to be a tool maker? annebalsamo: and the art pieces become templates? jah161274: right, "tutorial files" jah161274: nice annebalsamo: that makes me sad, cuz i'm nostalgic... skanknpaul has left the room. jah161274: nostalgic for what? jah161274: object-coveting? jah161274: handcrafting? annebalsamo: for the notion of non-instrumental art harljas: art as template - ya. creating is more fun for some jah161274: do computers introduce an undeniable intrumentality in art? ironman28@mac.com: templates are different from tools skanknpaul has entered the room. DarkLinkSF: It's a little surrual to see all the old photographs floating through a high-techy beam of light harljas: computers speed up remixing. templates curate directions? jah161274: this is tough - the high-impact interaction of flying through particles takes you to a text-scroll with voiceover. ironman28@mac.com: part of the work of Labyrinth -- and Vectors for that matter -- is creating tools to think with jah161274: he looks like michael lew You have just entered room "imd." jah161274: ominous music!\ anthonyk323 has entered the room. mtuters: man everyone keeps getting bumped out of the chat skanknpaul has entered the room. lpaulmer: yes does that happen the whole time jah161274: too much love on the network mtuters: heehee lpaulmer: studies show that smoking can decrease your IQ mtuters: man, rough ironman28@mac.com has left the room. michaelnaimark has left the room. michaelnaimark has entered the room. mtuters: i am shiva, destroyer of worlds DarkLinkSF: well, that means that he was even smarter than we know! ashleyyork25 has left the room. lpaulmer: oppenheimer believed the creation of the bomb was an end to war mtuters: thats oppenhimer in the background i think jah161274: I don't understand how you could study history and believe that jah161274: powerful optimism I guess lpaulmer: that having a tool so powerful would mean no one would want to go to war DarkLinkSF: Well, so far it has worked jah161274: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Oppenheimer mtuters: the correct quote is actually: "...now I am become Death [Shiva], the destroyer of worlds..." DarkLinkSF: it is incredibly unlikely that we'll see WW3 lpaulmer: hah, uh we are in a war ironman28@mac.com has entered the room. jah161274: we are in a peacekeeping, kellee DarkLinkSF: I believe that the goal was to prevent war on the scale that we saw in WW2 mtuters: total peace DarkLinkSF: the stuff in the gulf is a skirmish by comparison FireIce104 has entered the room. mtuters: pure war lpaulmer: tell that to the people there mtuters: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Virilio DarkLinkSF: that's beside the point lpaulmer: don't tell me that King Tangent annebalsamo has left the room. DarkLinkSF: Sine, sine, cosine, sine, 3.14159! 8-) annebalsamo has entered the room. jah161274: the interface on this project is more lively than the last interface jah161274: any maybe the content is more compelling/ jah161274: ? lpaulmer: or is the content more compelling because of the interface? jah161274 has left the room. jah161274 has entered the room. FireIce104: i find this interface poorly suited to history, if only because i think chronology and context are important to learning about history and appreciating aspects of it. mtuters: i liked the last one jah161274: jesse, loosen your notion of context display mtuters: this one feels like it will look dated FireIce104: I just feel like there's a prejudice often among interactive proponents that nonlinear automatically equals better ironman28@mac.com: these interfaces are designed to signify a different kind of history-writing mtuters: looks like the twilight zone jah161274: and to allow non-chronological associations between data-points ironman28@mac.com: twilight zone history! ashleyyork25 has entered the room. harljas has entered the room. lpaulmer: it's a story told through a personality and bloodlines, not time MagicM7658 has left the room. ironman28@mac.com: but I agree, Jesse, that something is lost if non-linearity takes over for its own sake FireIce104: yes, it works here to a degree, but it requires a level of pre-knowledge to appreciate that style FireIce104: knowing a certain amount about Einstein is key to enjoying a nonlinear Einstein story ironman28@mac.com: yes -- it's not for someone who is new to the subject lpaulmer: would someone know nothing about einstein? lpaulmer: qualification - would there ever be someone who is using this program who would know nothing about einstein ashleyyork25: i'm sure FireIce104: ask most people and they know e=mc2 - just this weekend at an art gallery i saw three people mistake a statue of Mark Twain for Einstein mtuters: there's this interactive dvd out there called "einstein's dream", does anyone know about that project? ironman28@mac.com: that's my problem with Norman Klein's take on Los Angeles -- it accepts too much of the wrong pre-knowledge DarkLinkSF: I would say that shows a lack of knowledge about Twain, not einstein mtuters: what do you mean by "wrong pre-knowledge"? ironman28@mac.com: the book is based on the idea that Los Angeles has no history ironman28@mac.com: that it is a culture of amnesia mtuters: forgets it's history ironman28@mac.com: yes -- is overwritten by the movies mtuters: re-presented ironman28@mac.com: but it's a naive way of thinking about the relationship between film and history mtuters: well, there is truth there ironman28@mac.com: history isn't different from what happens in movies mtuters: there is no sign that silverlake used to be the centre of the film inductry ironman28@mac.com: there's a Market Basket skanknpaul: expect maybe the Susent/Silverlake Junction sign mtuters: apart from a plaque in front of "ralphs" ironman28@mac.com: (that used to be a film studio) jah161274: that's because it was really Culver City - humph. We have a big marketing campaign to remind us we're the "home of screenland"! mtuters: where disney's studio once was mtuters: that's where they did snow white dread33sf: and wizard of oz dread33sf: and the outer limits! mtuters: culver city manages to preservation better i guess FireIce104: Doesn't this seem reckless in a "Experiencing history" context? You experience some aspects of the story that differ from what others may experience and "Create your own history"? ashleyyork25: the first studio was in edendale - present day echo park lpaulmer: well, it allows an ownership of the knowledge ironman28@mac.com: I think that's how history is always created FireIce104: but it almost guarantees an incomplete and biased reading ironman28@mac.com: yes! jah161274: and makes it more obvious lpaulmer: like how i have crossed the history in my highschool textbook with "A People's History of the United States" in order to create my telling of US history DarkLinkSF: Is that to be encouraged, though? dread33sf: as if there is a true objective reading FireIce104: exactly my point jah161274: fallability, Erik? I'm pro-fallability. ironman28@mac.com: Erik - yes! DarkLinkSF: but is that not something to strive for? DarkLinkSF: How come? ironman28@mac.com: Erik - no! ashleyyork25: it's impossible rick lpaulmer: it is to be encouraged at some point jah161274: maybe on Wikipedia - I strive for objectivity when I write there DarkLinkSF: I don't really see why DarkLinkSF: I mean, archaeologists try to recreate history annebalsamo: database design; meta-data information architecture=already a narrative CREATIVE practice DarkLinkSF: in an objective a way as possible skanknpaul: re-protray ironman28@mac.com: It's more interesting to try than to succeed jah161274: no, archeologists work to subvert intelligent design. ashleyyork25: think about all of the histories that have been conveniently left out DarkLinkSF: Right, and that's bad ashleyyork25: the debate surrounding HIStory mtuters: isn't that klien's point FireIce104: exactly- and under normal circumstances isn't this a criticism we level at something? DarkLinkSF: but like, there was a thing that happened at a point in time jah161274: anne - i am continually frustrated by my address book databases because they allow me no creative input and the creative work ended when the project shipped DarkLinkSF: and we can try to figure that out, right? jah161274: a point in time, a point of view lpaulmer: but there are multiple perspetives on that event lpaulmer: exactly DarkLinkSF: but isn't that what's wrong with the justice system? DarkLinkSF: like, Detectives are kind of historians ashleyyork25: what do you mean? michaelnaimark has left the room. annebalsamo: exactly, jason. that's why folkonomies are sooo interesting....knowledge construction practices among those who are creating the knowledge FireIce104: Anyway, my point was I think it's a thorny proving ground for this technology given the questions of objectivity. DarkLinkSF: as soon as you start talking about points of view, then everything becomes really confused and it's more about who has the higher paid lawyer FireIce104: As opposed to say, science jah161274: but this technology is perfect for illustrating multiple points of view which characterize any mass-recollection FireIce104: I'd have killed for something like this in my high school environmental science class jah161274: lev manovich jah161274: i enjoyed his book jah161274: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lev_Manovich ashleyyork25: he spoke at one of our seminars during the first year ashleyyork25: at that time, it was scott and only nine students in the iml mtuters: do you think he wrote that about himself on wikipedia? mtuters: i bet he did jah161274: haha jah161274: it is a bit flattering mtuters: it looks like him mtuters: he's like that jah161274: but many contemporary articles read like flattery, as they list achievements mtuters: do people do this? mtuters: have you see a lot of wikipedia cvs jah161274: a few mtuters: wow jah161274: there's a sort of protocol about adding yourself jah161274: informally dread33sf: Sounds like his book jacket blurb DarkLinkSF has left the room. mtuters: that's my friend ilze... mtuters: she's latvian, lives in london mtuters: she's supposed to be an alien ChrisSwain2001 has entered the room. jah161274: does she often remember experiencing unprovoked happiness? ironman28@mac.com: it's a brilliant performance mtuters: is that a crack steve DarkLinkSF has entered the room. ironman28@mac.com: NO! mtuters: o jah161274: right now, it's not interactive, right? ironman28@mac.com: it's dynamic jah161274: huh! jah161274: self-interactive ironman28@mac.com: yes -- when it plays off the database it has more possible variations ironman28@mac.com: The DVD is a rendering of a performance jah161274: the voice is dynamic too? jah161274: clips strung together in unpredicted order mtuters: some o this film was shot in vernon jah161274: I feel like my experience of this art depends on my observance of the connections (purposeful or incidental) between content pieces jah161274: because otherwise it doesn't matter that it's dynamically-generated jah161274: to me as a user mtuters: that's graph delicious in the background lpaulmer: this one actually has a character we are following DarkLinkSF: Is this officially random? How sophisticated are the rules that link the clips together? mtuters: or something lpaulmer: it make a huge difference DarkLinkSF: well, that's tightly linked jah161274: the story of old los angeles also had a central character Kellee - but it was somehow more detached-feeling ironman28@mac.com: you have to watch it multiple times lpaulmer: i mean, we are watching this character lpaulmer: or at least, we have seen more of her than Molly mtuters: that's a satellite dish in latvia rt32 jah161274: well, or heard more about her interiority through the VO lpaulmer: tru mtuters: http://rixc.lv/calendar/index.php?m=7&y=2004 jah161274: here the footage and VO seem not-so-linked jah161274: ah, until I clikc the link from Mark annebalsamo: This is more cinematic than the first one with the Molly character....we see the figure of the character, not so with molly..the cinematic reason for the sense of detachment, and possilby uninvestment in the story FireIce104: this is very well-written, so I find it much easier to engage with the experience. I felt like I lacked a connection worthy of my vested interest in the first two. jah161274: possibly - in the first project, perhaps we were meant to engage the city, or the commentator, more than Molly? mtuters: http://www.physicsroom.org.nz/log/archive/15/AccousticSpaceLab/ ashleyyork25: the music cues also help keep us involved in the unfolding drama jah161274: stringed instruments! skanknpaul has left the room. DarkLinkSF: This seems kind of like an audio book with animated illustrations annebalsamo: plus, there is deep pleasure in being TOLD a story, even if the story is dynamically reconfigured....all stories are recombinant, no? skanknpaul has entered the room. DarkLinkSF: but there's still like a kind of detatchment lpaulmer: and how does peter greenway feel about all of this? FireIce104: but that's content-side i think FireIce104: the visuals are nota s compelling as the story jah161274: haha - greenaway would toss in a penis for someone to eat jah161274: and that would make it more lively lpaulmer: he and John Waters should collaborate on the next Labryinth Project skanknpaul has left the room. jah161274: john waters is appearing at UCLA Live with Peaches lpaulmer: the xmas gig? mtuters: what mtuters: no way mtuters: wow jah161274: greenaways works are also fairly opaque jah161274: I tried watching 8.5 women and couldn't believe how arch it was jah161274: beautiful but detached mtuters: send the link justin ashleyyork25 has left the room. jah161274: http://www.uclalive.org/event.asp?Event_ID=269 jah161274: who is the audience for this? other database narratologists? jah161274: digital poets? jah161274: immigrants? ironman28@mac.com: it was in the Future Cinema show mtuters: the unemployable jah161274: so steve, would you say this project is part of the Res retinue? ironman28@mac.com: Res? What's that? jah161274: future cinema - Res lpaulmer: res fest dread33sf: need something like this in first look next semester jah161274: res is like the music video version of future cinema ironman28@mac.com: ah -- I was thinking of the ZKM show mtuters: did anyone go to res? ironman28@mac.com: it's gone downhill mtuters: it was last weekend mtuters: yah but... jah161274: downhill = commercial / mainstream? mtuters: so nobody here went? mtuters: wow lpaulmer: downhill = lower quality jah161274: the scuttlebutt I've heard is that they have moved away from a focus on experimental cinema, and towards street art ironman28@mac.com: curating lost focus ironman28@mac.com: yes -- new programmers this year lpaulmer: some of the pieces last year felt like joe schmoe, first look stuff annebalsamo has left the room. jah161274: what is the most widely seen piece of database narrative? mtuters: this lpaulmer: good one! mtuters: no puppet motel jah161274: ? jah161274: we see her face! jah161274: "nobody cares about her" jah161274: they're doing an experimental story (no sex, no violence, no canned narrative) as well as experimental form mtuters: she's a wireless artist/curator jah161274: I guess you can't do a meg ryan movie with this tool mtuters: in real life FireIce104: Justin, I'd be interested to try actually mtuters: http://republicart.net/art/%63oncept/interview-black_en.htm jah161274: well I wonder, what's the point? I mean, in spite of myself I am compelled by something like Leopold and Kate - so why bother remaking it using new tools? jah161274: I just wonder, what kind of story might be similarly, involuntarily compelling jah161274: in this format FireIce104: Think of a favorite sappy movie like that. Think about how amny times you've seen it and you love the story of them falling in love and yearn to see more of these characters jah161274: without cannibalism and S&M FireIce104: but a sequel would be wrong mtuters: this is a pretty good standby i think its not the first time its been used lpaulmer: yes, what about a Titanic database narrative? FireIce104: so what you'd ahve is a story that's stilla bout this romantic couple, but a lot of those "how they meet and fall in love" scenes are dynamic lpaulmer: yes, and you can delve as much as you want into their stories harljas: involuntarily compelling is a nice concept jah161274: Well, the Shoah foundation has collected a lot of holocaust narrative - if they released that under Creative Commons, people could build parallel narratives about those events. mtuters: see for example, The Otolith by Kodwo Eshun jah161274: that wouldn't be like a meg ryan movie really ironman28@mac.com: Virgil Widrich's Fast Film exposes the interchangeability of much Hollywood narrative jah161274: mark - link? harljas: joe frank is involuntarily compelling jah161274: steve - link? jah161274: joe frank is totally rad FireIce104: sure it would. jah161274: and pretty non-linear ironman28@mac.com: http://www.virgilwidrich.com jah161274: holy shit I've seen that it's totally incredible jah161274: I hadn't made that direct association to interchangable narrative jah161274: but of course jah161274: (I was lost in technique) ironman28@mac.com: the James Bond sequences especially jah161274: this voiceover seems to be telling a linear story jah161274: if we had this piece running off the DB, would the VO be possibly non-linear as well? ironman28@mac.com: no mtuters: can't find the link justin mtuters: there's this on eshin though: http://www.transmediale.de/page/detail/detail.1.persons.219.1.html lpaulmer has left the room. harljas: seems like need for continuity is stronger for audio ironman28@mac.com: but having a linear voice over is better than not having one, I think -- i.e., I find this an improvement over the original Soft Cinema version mtuters has left the room. ironman28@mac.com: which felt structurally and formally chaotic harljas has left the room. anthonyk323 has left the room. FireIce104: I agree, Steve. FireIce104: Being able to see a method to the madness improves the experience. ironman28@mac.com: yes -- it's like Lars von Trier says, you can experiment with form or story or not both jah161274: a viewer would only notice the DVD-version's stability on a second viewing ironman28@mac.com: but dread33sf: has everyone seen " strain andromeda" ? http://www.vdb.org/smackn.acgi$tapedetail?STRAINANDR dread33sf: gives me a similar feeling ironman28@mac.com: and EGSerene mtuters has entered the room. mtuters has left the room. jah161274: anne mcguire seems neat - her experimental video is charged with media commentary jericho1ne has entered the room. ironman28@mac.com: Barbara Lattanzi created an engine for reproducing the structure of Strain Andromeda http://www.wildernesspuppets.net/yarns/indexframeset.html jah161274: nice link steve, thanks - many things to explore there dread33sf: is it cinema if it's for just one person? - mt dread33sf: so what happens to the rights to a movie if you use this algorithm on it?? IS it fair use for v-blogging? jah161274: haha - nice one scott FireIce104 has left the room. ironman28@mac.com has left the room. jericho1ne has left the room.