You have just entered room "imd." dread33sf: Pighed ujmiii has left the room. sklathill has entered the room. TruffleDi has entered the room. Hardcoremoogles has entered the room. okamilink has entered the room. nohaptimusprime has entered the room. TruffleDi: ICT looking for volunteers for SIGGRAPH stuff...talk to Bolas Envarh has entered the room. michaelnaimark has entered the room. supadre2k2 has entered the room. TruffleDi: Also, 491 games looking for crew, John looking for memory test volunteers, and Peggy looking for testers for Redistricting okamilink: Yes, I would like to add that I am also looking for crew. I suppose an email could go out about that. peggyweil has entered the room. TruffleDi: RJ, is there a synposis of your game anywhere? peggyweil: playtesting for ReDistricting: email me peggyweil: pweil@usc.edu Envarh: someone remind me to ask about this later: http://www.tranism.com/weblog/2007/03/storytron.html Envarh: PHONE PHREAKING! Hardcoremoogles: Capn Crunch BableBlast has entered the room. okamilink: Just on my laptop, Diana. Is there a central location for it? I can post it on the blog. dread33sf: or wiki TruffleDi: Your blog would work. I'm just nosy and considering taking 491 next semester :-) Hardcoremoogles: Procedurally Modeled Multi User Gaming Enviroments okamilink: Not a problem :-) dread33sf: PAuse and effect book okamilink: Buy Pause and Effect on Amazon: $29.70 Envarh: http://www.pause-effect.com/ Envarh: w/ excerpts dread33sf: boar.com Hardcoremoogles: Natural Language Processing and Generation (NLP/NLG) okamilink: resident FPS players: do you agree that FPS games are getting boring? Hardcoremoogles: Nothing overlooked more than the online avatar - Susan Wu (Sp?) TruffleDi: Metal Mike: No, look at games like STALKER, Condemned, Chronicles or Riddick, Deus Ex IW dread33sf: empathy for shadow of the collossus creatures? BableBlast: I think in terms of FPS's, despite toys such as physics guns, we haven't seen much new news in terms of mechanic in a while, but we have been able to use this well-defined genre to make big strides in complex environments. okamilink: Why should I look at those games, Metal Mike? (thanks for letting him chat, Diana) BableBlast: damn i wish I was there now. TruffleDi: their environments are impressive, as are their modes of interaction TruffleDi: the choices you are able to make in DEIW have real repercussions for the story okamilink: Jamie, your absence is like a gaping hole in the fabric of seminar. BableBlast: :/ Envarh: I wonder if that neural structure is important to Theory of Mind... do Ravens and Parrots have similar responses? TruffleDi: (Diana again) I would think that this is the case. If I understand right, mirror neurons are necessary not only for identification, but also imitation Hardcoremoogles: I'm surprised I haven't heard anyone bring this up in talks about "game-induced" violence before. peggyweil: The Damasios (here at USC) have done major work on mirror neurons. So has Ramachandran in San Diego. TruffleDi: MM: they spoke about it with the study relating driving games to poor driving habits okamilink: EVE?! Envarh: I hated being Lucas Kane okamilink: Like never pressing the brakes? TruffleDi: Di: or hitting hookers peggyweil: smokin' in second life ujmiii has entered the room. TruffleDi: like agressive driving okamilink: MGS! ujmiii has left the room. okamilink: speaker claims that "your emotions can be measured" okamilink: and that technology will be there, but it's not worth focusing on as much as the human heart and archetypes. TruffleDi: archetypes = tools TruffleDi: steven seagull? okamilink: silently breaking necks. TruffleDi: silent but chubby Envarh: http://channel101.com/shows/show.php?show_id=238 okamilink: that's a quote right there. Hardcoremoogles: furries = communist homosexuals? What was the other one? TruffleDi: gore = heterosexual republicans Hardcoremoogles: amazing. TruffleDi: Did...did she mean the gore RP system, or did she mean like, blood and guts in epics? ujmiii has entered the room. okamilink: question at the bottom of the slide: "will games in 20 years be blogs?" ujmiii: nah...the joln norman gor books ujmiii: john TruffleDi: Is this meant to imply a cycle or a progression? okamilink: it seems like a progression TruffleDi: Because it seems like these things go in and out of vogue TruffleDi: Epics are fashionable right now, both in film AND games okamilink: Aren't they always? TruffleDi: hahaha Epics are always excellent, but not always quite so widely produced ujmiii has left the room. nohaptimusprime has left the room. TruffleDi: Part of moving so quickly through that progression is that for lit and theatre, the genres had to be invented first TruffleDi: Whereas once we got to TV or games, it was just the step of "oh, well, let's do X genre as a game" okamilink: but weren't those genres present as storytelling prior to lit or theatre? TruffleDi: I think traditional storytelling tended to be epic, with aspects that were moral, essay, etc peggyweil: fewer opportunities to be a (modern) hero okamilink: Any idea where scary/horror stories fit? TruffleDi: Epics, for the most part. Man vs. monster TruffleDi: Sometimes essay as well, depending on the nature of the "monster" okamilink: Frankenstein vs. Dracula for instance? TruffleDi: That's just fun. TruffleDi: Or spectacle, perhaps? Envarh: Is second life really a game? okamilink: Well, I mean, Frankenstein as a story opposed to Dracula... or maybe something simpler, like... a big ogre or something. But eh, this is a large tangent. ujmiii has entered the room. Envarh: Fahrenheit turns into an Epic by the second act TruffleDi: I tend to think that most of the genres we talk about (horror, western, whatever) are skins that go on top of these more fundamental literary structures okamilink: Hmmm... I can see that. peggyweil: does Justin's passively multiplayer online game qualify as essay, society representing hero? Envarh: Quantic dream basically discarded their psychological drama and ended the story with robots vs aliens vs. the illuminati... kind of like... an epic ujmiii: which in turn garb older oral traditions okamilink: Indigo Prophecy hinted at epic from nearly the beginning, too. TruffleDi: "spankin' sparkly new stuff"--good phrase Envarh: hinted Envarh: but kept it within one guy's psychological space Envarh: I want to see a scale for these measurements TruffleDi: How does interactive change how we measure emotion? As opposed to how you would guage, like, a viewer's response to a film? TruffleDi: I agree that the emoting hapens, but why is interactive so special in terms of measurement? okamilink: i guess because our emotion can impact the interactive piece? TruffleDi: Perhaps he means using interactive as the measurement tool? An algorithm in Halo that checks my frustration level? okamilink: right. since he's asking how a computer can measure it, so it needs to be quantifiable. ujmiii: acting out TruffleDi: I want that plugin Envarh: but is this legit if he's citing the Qur'an? Envarh: granted, he picked the quotes, but still TruffleDi: No, I think that's the key. He picked that quotation, therefore it reflects what he wanted to say. okamilink: you mean that just because the Qur'an is depressed, it doesn't mean that Bin Laden is? TruffleDi: This demo relies awfully heavily on the measurement tool TruffleDi: I guess it's beside the point, but I wish we could establish that this is a valid way of interpreting/measuring emotion ujmiii: i wonder how well it contextualizes the words within the contexts of sentences and paragraphs... Envarh: ok, I check out at astrology ujmiii: mebbe it uses some bezian analysis? TruffleDi: It seems like straight up text parsing--here's a word, does the database associate meaning to it ujmiii: ya, it does look like that. not terribly useful TruffleDi: Probably fun to play with. A lot like rorshachs, myers-briggs, etc ujmiii: or john's memory test? TruffleDi: Conversation is so subjective, though. TruffleDi: I mean, incidence of swear words can indicate anger, sure, but it also can indicate social class TruffleDi: Or age TruffleDi: Or sarcasm Envarh: or partying hard ujmiii: haha TruffleDi: I wonder if there's a way to measure sarcasm using existing technology TruffleDi: It's certainly a source of confusion in text-only conversations Envarh: ORLY? ujmiii: why not a semantic analysis? okamilink: Simple: Just check if they use the "rolling-eyes" emoticon! ;-) TruffleDi: Ah, but see, just then, your winky face was snarky ujmiii: semantics TruffleDi: you and I know that, but how does my PC? ujmiii: need at least a dual quad okamilink: maybe the PC can measure the outcome of a conversation (or even more minutely, an exchange) and at least get an indication of the general feeling toward one another... punctuation, etc. But it's difficult, to be sure. okamilink: They're just being difficult. Everyone likes chocolate chips. ujmiii: bayesian stuff is getting better TruffleDi: I love that customer service is on there okamilink: Meaning that we can experience the thrill of running over 100 pedestrians without really facing the consequences? Envarh: to mis-apply Huizinga, isn't this just saying that we can transport real-world emotions and play states into a game but in a safe environment? ujmiii: would it be a thrill otherwise? peggyweil: The Blurring Test! okamilink: I always think of Groundhog Day. No consequences... how many crimes would you commit? How many times would you kill yourself? But then again, he got bored of it and depressed, which actually is similar to how GTA affects me. TruffleDi: so these NPC's would be emotional porn? okamilink: emotional porn? Envarh: dial 3 on the Penfield Mood Organ TruffleDi: Well, in the same way that porn is a tool to satisfy a physiological need (without another person) okamilink: But NPCs already perform that purpose, right? I mean, if bloodlust is a physiological need. Or, you know, maybe the need for praise/reward? Envarh: ¡Orale! games will unplayable for a few years if that's the case ujmiii: u need bloodlust? TruffleDi: That would be emotional, not physical okamilink: I was joking. But I think I'm talking more about pyschological needs. okamilink: Yeah. okamilink: My bad. TruffleDi: I think current NPC's do tend to serve emotional needs, crudely. TruffleDi: He's talking about refining that okamilink: Sure. I don't see how this setup would serve a physiological need, though. TruffleDi: Who said it did? ujmiii: blow-up dolls have done that for eons TruffleDi: gross, dude okamilink: you suggestd they would be emotional porn = porn fills a physiological need, on your definition? TruffleDi: Porn is to the physical what NPC's are to the emotional TruffleDi: Was what I was suggesting could happen okamilink: Ah, gotcha. Envarh: and if you're interacting with one NPC Envarh: how does it shift registers? Envarh: reverse the previous: if the NPC only interacts with you, how can it be a rounded character? TruffleDi: shift registers? ujmiii: your dichotomy needs mending Envarh: linguistic registers (swears and the like, or more fundamentally, the T-V distinction in Indo-European languages) TruffleDi: Well, to you, that NPC is well rounded Envarh: is it? TruffleDi: I guess I would say that you probably don't WANT a truly well rounded character Envarh: but we do peggyweil: suspension of disbelief Envarh: we don't want sycophants Envarh: people are interesting because the disagree with one another TruffleDi: True Envarh: happiness =/= satisfaction TruffleDi: But a personalized NPC does not necessarily mean a sycophant Envarh: that was a not equal Envarh: thanks smilies TruffleDi: ( != is good syntax for that) Envarh: code :P TruffleDi: But to get back to the point, a personalized NPC might be designed to be interesting to you, not necessarily just agree with everything you say Envarh: but that wears thin quickly Envarh: arguably, you have better theory of mind than the NPC Envarh: you talk to many people TruffleDi: Don't most people also wear thin? Envarh: and learn how to gauge and empathize Envarh: other people ujmiii: npc has to be adaptive Envarh: the NPC can't do that ujmiii: not yet. ujmiii: his natural language point addressed that Envarh: but that's one register Envarh: it's all happening in a vacuum TruffleDi: Ideally, a personalized NPC would contain enough similarity to you that you can identify with it, and enough of "the other" to be interesting Envarh: but how do you introduce an adaptive other that doesn't become the guy talking to it Envarh: it has to exist as a full social entity and talk to other people ujmiii: it's adaptive around a core set of behaviors TruffleDi: Well, in that case, it's not personalized anymore ujmiii: well, yeah TruffleDi: And you would either find it interesting or not, just like you do actual people] ujmiii: why not? okamilink: in order for us to believe it's another person, they have to make mistakes, or even further, use pidgin language, right? could they do that? ujmiii: npc's in role playing games (not video rpg's) are designed to be adaptive to a degree to keep the players interested TruffleDi: Well, while we're postulating adaptive systems and empathetic NPCs, why not throw in mistakes and language too? Envarh: I think the golden test is when an AI lies to you... and knows its lying. ujmiii: ohhh...pc's are very conniving already TruffleDi: MM:it seems to me that his eventual question will be the one that Masamune Shirow asked in Ghost in the Shell: what happens when an organism is no longer distinguishable from a human, and in fact develops sentience? TruffleDi: Di: actually, I don't think he'll get to that question. far too concerned with mechanics, not as much with ethics/results ujmiii: ya Envarh: not to be a semantics jerk, but sentience isn't sapience TruffleDi: Nice, Max. Okay, fine. What happens when AI is self aware? TruffleDi: Or has judgement? okamilink: Then we shoot it and see what happens to the other robots? ujmiii: what if they're acting? Envarh: (get's back to the point of lying and knowing it's lying) Envarh: gets peggyweil: The Adam of BITS!!! TruffleDi: Then they really ARE sapient, and we have officially stepped into an Isaac Asimov novel peggyweil: mother's maiden name? okamilink: can NPCs hack Scott Fisher's account? TruffleDi: Street you were born on Envarh: SCIFI CLICHE SENTENCE "oh great, rogue AI's stole my ID, someone call the Turing Police" okamilink: thank you TruffleDi: Old guard AI becomes Google. Somehow, that makes sense. TruffleDi: Isn't AI an extremely broad term? Envarh: hahahaha al preachin' a new dualism based on man and machine Envarh: who's the Ahriman? okamilink: Maslow's hierarchy of needs! ujmiii: isn't that part of zoroastrianism? Envarh: or a Sim ujmiii: ahriman and ahura mazda? Envarh: simple drives can do emergent personalities Envarh: there's a reason I chose Ahriman ujmiii: i could be confusing my 'ligions ujmiii: ah peggyweil: the world is 94% dark matter Envarh: "magical thinking" ujmiii: magical fascism? TruffleDi: magical mushrooms Envarh: machine making is not an essentially human thing-- consider human societies with simple tool-making only ujmiii: psilocibes? Envarh: our wetware owes more to flint hand-axes than automobiles and the millstone ujmiii: er...psilocybes Envarh: man I accidently fail the turing test all the time with voicemail systems okamilink: there was a story on Penny Arcade about Gabe playing a game online against bots and thinking they were human for quite a long while. ujmiii: robot counselors Envarh: perhaps we need to start divorcing "human" from sapient Envarh: there's still too much chimp in our half of the equation TruffleDi: Interesting that they wanted to give a bot ethics ujmiii: that the bot can pass on TruffleDi: Do we impose our ethics on the bots, or will they eventually be intelligent enough to develop their own ethics? ujmiii: to people and other bots Envarh: more interestingly... how do we let bots evolve ethics? TruffleDi: Asimov, not Clark ujmiii: in a web of mobile autonomous agents, the ethics of differing groups will necessarily interact ujmiii: the security issues are astounding Envarh: I mean we (humans) have all of our ethical standards (I would say a few are universal), and it's pretty apparent that there was a biological or social pressure which led to the selection and adoption of "ethics" TruffleDi: sapience is a rather loaded term when applied to robots, as their judgments are weighted on criteria which are different from the values which are weighed in human judgment, and are produced by completely different methods Envarh: Bots are arguably free from those constraints Envarh: and what kind of ethics would they come up with? ujmiii: how would they affect each other's data sets? Envarh: what's a robot taboo? TruffleDi: Eventually, I assume they'd develop ethics the way we did...what is optimal for survival/comfort? Envarh: not a More, but actual Taboo TruffleDi: Mike: but i would aruge that ourt judgment are not always optimised for survival/procreation Envarh: no, it isn't TruffleDi: or even comfort ujmiii: if they develop ethics, why not religion? Envarh: the added qualifier is social pressure ujmiii: robot voodoo Envarh: which pushes back on evolutionary fitness Envarh: in a social population TruffleDi: I use comfort rather broadly. Social pressure affects emotional comfort, does it not? ujmiii: i'm fond of punctuated equilibrium Envarh: for memes as well as genes? ujmiii: why not? Envarh: hahaha Envarh: RE the convo-now-- perhaps it's all the uncertainty principle Envarh: perhaps we have a quantum nature to us Envarh: I am now saying things out of my league TruffleDi: I think the larger issue here is: are we trying to create AI that has as valid an intelligence as we have? TruffleDi: A true sentient (sapient) being? ujmiii: someone must be lonely TruffleDi: or are we creating beings that can fake it, albeit skillfully Envarh: hahaha Envarh: I disagree with the notion of it being human ujmiii: but mebbe that brings us back to video games Envarh: a person, yes TruffleDi: What I'm asking is, is that our goal? TruffleDi: Are we trying to create people? TruffleDi: Or beings that have the facade of being a person, without all the internal workings? okamilink: We can already do that! okamilink: Usually on accident. ujmiii: easier to practice surgery and war on human-like robots TruffleDi: RJ: Nice TruffleDi: I guess what I'm asking is, do these bots feel happy/sad/afraid, or do they ACT happy/sad/afraid in service of human needs? ujmiii: you'd have to ask the robots okamilink: I think we make this stuff for our own needs. ujmiii: can you really tell me sharks don't feel pain? Hardcoremoogles: Didn't Chris make an argument that for game interfaces that the illusion of intelligence in regards to the game system itself is more important than true A.I.? Envarh: they don't feel human pain Envarh: (theirs could be worse) TruffleDi: uel: no, and they do get cancer ujmiii: ya peggyweil: do I watch Fox or listen to NPR ujmiii: you'd have to prove that... Envarh: mute the TV and see if thee two do the dark side of the moon thing ujmiii: will robots dream? okamilink: of electric sheep, yes. okamilink: or something? Envarh: why do robots need to dream? TruffleDi: It's a possibility...the question is, will they tell us if they do? Envarh: it could not be important to them okamilink: i think it's more of a question of: why should they? Envarh: hahahaha ujmiii: i dunno...why is it alligators do but platypuses don't/ Envarh: it's pretty clear we have to dream okamilink: John is well versed in safe words. Envarh: we stop (physically) we die TruffleDi: Do we mean dream as in "stuff that happens in our heads when we sleep" TruffleDi: Or as in, aspirations? Envarh: why must a robot dream ujmiii: actually, some people live without dreaming Envarh: do they do REM? okamilink: why must a robot sleep in the first place? ujmiii: dunno...but it can? ujmiii: er...because okamilink: we want them to work 24/7, making our bread, and so on. ujmiii: haha peggyweil: the first BOT, Eliza, was modeled after a Rogerian therapist Envarh: I need a robot to play games for me ujmiii: i need a robot to nightmare for me TruffleDi: I'd settle for one that reminds me when I'm forgetting something Envarh: that's called a notebook ujmiii: and makes a good quiche Envarh: again: notebook :-) TruffleDi: Yes. Right up until I lose the notebook (happens frequently( ujmiii: have two notebooks okamilink: Robots are for increasing enjoyment and pleasure out of life. okamilink: for humans. Envarh: read "robots" as "tools" ujmiii: not for war and torture/ okamilink: well, war and torture could bring enjoyment/pleasure to some people. okamilink: yes, they are tools. supadre2k2: Jamiee yet again, arriving late yet again: There are theories that humans dream to test out neural states, decisions, etc in a safe environment, LIKE A GAME. In that case, robots would be as prone to dream as us Envarh: ORLY? supadre2k2: Because there's always a utility to testing out reactions in a closed environment Envarh: couldn't Mr. Bot just run a game ujmiii: yes, but those theories usually tenuous supadre2k2: sure, they are certainly unproven, but don't you think it s compelling? supadre2k2: robots already dream, its unit testing Envarh: so is magical thinking ujmiii: but sure, a robot might have spurts of current going on reminiscent of what some call intellectual flotsam ujmiii: compelling until i studied it okamilink: well, is dreaming just imagining theoretical scenarios, then? Envarh: hahaha Envarh: that language learning bot needs so much syntax ujmiii: it's hard to say at what point in REM the dream ends and daydream begins ujmiii: so there...why shouldn't robots daydream? okamilink: because they should be working! okamilink: no time for dawdling. supadre2k2: magical thinking meaning what? anthropomorphizing phenomena? or simply discussing theories that are not provable given the things we can gather good data from? okamilink: if i have to tell a robot to, "get back to work, slacker" then we have truly failed. ujmiii: magical thinking is whimsy Envarh: magical thinking was RE: "sure, they are certainly unproven, but don't you think it s compelling?" Envarh: it's the post hoc fallacy TruffleDi: RJ: or have we succeeded, because we've created an entity capable of goofing off? Envarh: built into all of us ujmiii: lazy robots okamilink: only if it's that kind of robot. the slacker model, made for slackers looking for fellow slackers in an incresingly isolated world. okamilink: but it's WORKING at slacking! TruffleDi: hahaha okamilink: :-) TruffleDi: So is the laziness something we add, or a result of bots that have evolved their own desires? supadre2k2: julian knows how to sell it imdbot: Hey all, Josh here. TruffleDi: Like, is writing code something a slacker bot would do in his free time? ujmiii: if that works for you :-) imdbot: Question. Why is it important for AI's to be autonomous when it's all smoke and mirrors anway? imdbot: anyway Envarh: man, when robots grow up their going to read all our books about how we think we'll have to murder them okamilink: Yeah, I don't want to have to deal with a robot that feels emotions. I don't care if it's sad, just bake me a cake already. supadre2k2: that's true, its going to be awkward Envarh: hahaha imdbot: I'm not saying that it wouldn't be cool to have the be autonomous, but it seems unnecessary given the role NPC's play. TruffleDi: lol RJ, I think you've crossed into the realm of physical robots, not software constructs Envarh: we've got to draw the line between tool and person Envarh: arguably, cake-bot, bake-bot, and accountor are all just tools TruffleDi: i want robots, if only so that i can be robocop Envarh: they help me be me more efficiently ujmiii: he hasn't just spoken of autonomous npc's, but autonomous mobile (cross platform) agents...they can server a purpose supadre2k2: 90% of the robot population"lives" in japan. okamilink: obviously there are just tools. that's why they exist. Envarh: but at what point do I starting putting my mind Envarh: into external things imdbot: certainly, but when I think NPC, I think of a game agent TruffleDi: I'm not gonna lie...this cakebot thing is starting to sound very appealing ujmiii: such agents already guard networks... okamilink: damn straight! imdbot: NPC means Non-Player-Character okamilink: it makes it perfectly every time, too. Envarh: when do they stop being tools and start being homunculi TruffleDi: Josh, what we're talking about is the next level imdbot: Perhaps he should've titled his talk "autonomous agents" ujmiii: he should have... imdbot: next level? That only depends on the purpose of the NPC. ujmiii: sure TruffleDi: He proposed NPC's that are cross-platform imdbot: Some NPC's have more depth than others, depending on the product Envarh: historical figure bot = actor = robot capable of lying ujmiii: make the agents as intelligent as they need to be TruffleDi: Like, that independently cross in and out of games, Second Life, whatever Envarh: otherwise, if robot thinks it's socrates okamilink: except the george washington bot, right? ;-) Envarh: it's insane by human standards Envarh: napoleon complex imdbot: honestly, I wouldn't want NPC's that act the same way in all products peggyweil: Joeseph Weizenbaum was so appalled by the notion that ELIZA could presage machine therapists, took two years to write Computer Power and Human Reason imdbot: and once again, I question the name of the agent. It's not really an NPC in the traditional game sense. ujmiii: it would be cool, though, if the npc's in the game you play at home is diff from the the one's in the same game your friend plays imdbot: depends on the game :P Envarh: fiat money maybe ujmiii: :P back imdbot: sorry, that smiley is rather creepy :/ peggyweil: or an expression Envarh: tramalfadoreans! Envarh: <3 Envarh: