Chat Records:
UserName Message Timestamp 
dub IMD seminar 9/24: Professor STeve Anderson Wed Sep 24 17:28:34 PDT 2008 
dub "Evocative Knowledge Objects and The War Between Theory and Practice" Wed Sep 24 17:28:37 PDT 2008 
dub http://interactive.usc.edu/members/sfisher/archives/2008/09/imd_forum_for_9_8.html Wed Sep 24 17:33:35 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab 3 cheers for Steve! Wed Sep 24 17:58:31 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab dot Wed Sep 24 17:58:44 PDT 2008 
Michael WOOO Wed Sep 24 18:00:38 PDT 2008 
Daniel Ponce Welcome to the Steve Anderson Experience Wed Sep 24 18:07:56 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab wait, that's one cheer! Wed Sep 24 18:08:19 PDT 2008 
ndef Woo! Wed Sep 24 18:08:33 PDT 2008 
Elizabeth hip-hip hurrah! Wed Sep 24 18:08:43 PDT 2008 
dub http://www.5dconference.com/ Wed Sep 24 18:10:21 PDT 2008 
dub http://interactive.usc.edu/members/sfisher/archives/2008/09/imd_forum_for_9_8.html Wed Sep 24 18:12:00 PDT 2008 
dub fuse those talks Wed Sep 24 18:15:22 PDT 2008 
snark http://www2.parc.com/isl/members/saund/richgold-at-work/home/index.html Wed Sep 24 18:16:00 PDT 2008 
Brandi Me likey the scrolling presentation :) Wed Sep 24 18:16:15 PDT 2008 
Michael haha Wed Sep 24 18:16:30 PDT 2008 
pvd Finally Wed Sep 24 18:16:34 PDT 2008 
Veronica Episteme and techne usually put on opposite ends Wed Sep 24 18:17:02 PDT 2008 
Veronica But is that the [i]right [/i]way? Wed Sep 24 18:17:35 PDT 2008 
ndef Going from learning-about (epistimology) to learning-to-be (ontology)... Wed Sep 24 18:21:22 PDT 2008 
snark http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_Emporium_of_Benevolent_Recognition Wed Sep 24 18:21:32 PDT 2008 
ndef Can I just mention how much I love Borges? Wed Sep 24 18:21:33 PDT 2008 
Daniel Ponce http://wordle.net/ Wed Sep 24 18:22:39 PDT 2008 
ndef (Beat me to it.) Wed Sep 24 18:22:47 PDT 2008 
pweil another good site for visualization hacks: http://services.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/browse/visualizations Wed Sep 24 18:24:31 PDT 2008 
Daniel Ponce the power of presentation of information Wed Sep 24 18:28:34 PDT 2008 
pvd the most important aspect of communication Wed Sep 24 18:29:06 PDT 2008 
pvd in terms of effectiveness Wed Sep 24 18:29:12 PDT 2008 
Daniel Ponce http://labs.digg.com/ another vizualizer of information Wed Sep 24 18:31:10 PDT 2008 
pweil and ted insisted on multi-directional links - 2 way! Wed Sep 24 18:31:17 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau Visualizing tags with space http://www.taggalaxy.com/ Wed Sep 24 18:31:35 PDT 2008 
snark DARPA's mindmapping app: http://cmap.ihmc.us/ Wed Sep 24 18:32:03 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau cool! I needed a map of my own mind Wed Sep 24 18:32:46 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab tools for mapping the thought process Wed Sep 24 18:34:47 PDT 2008 
Michael sit right back and you'll hear a tale Wed Sep 24 18:35:37 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau type anakin and look at when it became popular Wed Sep 24 18:35:59 PDT 2008 
Daniel Ponce It peaked in 1983 and droped in 1999 Wed Sep 24 18:36:29 PDT 2008 
dub content vs design Wed Sep 24 18:40:01 PDT 2008 
Daniel Ponce Serious Games for education http://www.seriousgames.org/archives/000199.html Wed Sep 24 18:40:02 PDT 2008 
dub word vs. image Wed Sep 24 18:40:08 PDT 2008 
dub design vs technology Wed Sep 24 18:40:19 PDT 2008 
Michael http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpapers/movie/terminator/terminator_10.jpg Wed Sep 24 18:40:39 PDT 2008 
Michael http://interactive.usc.edu/ Wed Sep 24 18:41:55 PDT 2008 
dub show vectors examples! Wed Sep 24 18:42:02 PDT 2008 
Veronica a higher bar to set - new scholarly vernaculars Wed Sep 24 18:42:17 PDT 2008 
Bill Dynacular Wed Sep 24 18:42:34 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau Very strong visualization tool http://www.gapminder.org/video/talks/ted-2007---the-seemingly-impossible-is-possible.html?PHPSESSID=c40gtkcbt9307t8g765t4g23n7 Wed Sep 24 18:43:49 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau use moving graph to interpret data overtime Wed Sep 24 18:44:12 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau and customize what the x axis, the y axis, the size of the bubbles, and the color of the bubbles mean Wed Sep 24 18:44:48 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau gapminder.org let's you try out the graph. Wed Sep 24 18:47:18 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau Google bought them and the application is now a gadget in google docs! Wed Sep 24 18:47:52 PDT 2008 
Daniel Ponce Second Life Island for all those with second life http://slurl.com/secondlife/IML/251/132/52 Wed Sep 24 18:48:17 PDT 2008 
Michael do it Wed Sep 24 18:48:40 PDT 2008 
dub the tufte tunnel in SL Wed Sep 24 18:48:58 PDT 2008 
Daniel Ponce http://www.nonnydlp.com/ Wed Sep 24 18:49:17 PDT 2008 
pweil gonegitmo.blogspot.com Wed Sep 24 18:49:42 PDT 2008 
pweil http://gonegitmo.blogspot.com Wed Sep 24 18:49:56 PDT 2008 
Michael the future is now Wed Sep 24 18:50:20 PDT 2008 
pvd internet 2021 Wed Sep 24 18:50:29 PDT 2008 
dub the bladerunner "esper" machine Wed Sep 24 18:50:30 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab track 45 left Wed Sep 24 18:51:00 PDT 2008 
Daniel Ponce poloroid is the future Wed Sep 24 18:51:21 PDT 2008 
Veronica the future was 1982 Wed Sep 24 18:51:48 PDT 2008 
Michael blade runner = INVEST IN NEON now Wed Sep 24 18:51:50 PDT 2008 
Brandi an advanced poloroid! He didn't have to shake it or anything Wed Sep 24 18:52:07 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau god i hate that movie... Wed Sep 24 18:52:24 PDT 2008 
ndef Photosynth as "collective memory" Wed Sep 24 18:52:41 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau photosynth is out Wed Sep 24 18:52:59 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau http://photosynth.net/ you can upload photos and they are assembled in 3d. They always go online however but still. Wed Sep 24 18:53:43 PDT 2008 
Michael i think they earned it Wed Sep 24 18:54:19 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau doesn't work as well as the demo Wed Sep 24 18:54:23 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau unless you take thousand of pictures Wed Sep 24 18:54:33 PDT 2008 
ndef Wait, Microsoft has an "Earth" application? Wed Sep 24 18:55:10 PDT 2008 
Cynthia You could say that about a lot of things... doesn't work well unless you have (a ton of people) working on it... >_> Wed Sep 24 18:55:20 PDT 2008 
Veronica collective memory, capturing history Wed Sep 24 18:55:33 PDT 2008 
pvd visualizing history and the current moment on the same picture plane... Wed Sep 24 18:56:12 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau that's gapminder. Wed Sep 24 18:57:39 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau it's not a picture but still Wed Sep 24 18:57:56 PDT 2008 
ndef Wow, that's a pretty liberal interpretation of "wiki". Wed Sep 24 18:57:59 PDT 2008 
Veronica desires that swirl around reenactment Wed Sep 24 18:59:19 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau JFK reloaded tag line: "what if YOU were the one that killed the president?" Wed Sep 24 19:00:01 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau sadly this really reminds me of GTA... Wed Sep 24 19:00:23 PDT 2008 
Veronica mike - what song is playing? Wed Sep 24 19:01:15 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau hurray for physics Wed Sep 24 19:01:44 PDT 2008 
Daniel Ponce Could something like this better teach history then textbooks? Wed Sep 24 19:03:46 PDT 2008 
pvd that's the question Wed Sep 24 19:04:13 PDT 2008 
ndef Or in conjunction with textbooks... Wed Sep 24 19:04:22 PDT 2008 
Michael I just learned he was assasinated right now Wed Sep 24 19:04:22 PDT 2008 
pvd maybe it could provide perspective to accompany information Wed Sep 24 19:04:23 PDT 2008 
Michael jk lolz Wed Sep 24 19:04:36 PDT 2008 
Cynthia Textbooks are written by the winners? Wed Sep 24 19:04:48 PDT 2008 
ndef Is software? Wed Sep 24 19:04:59 PDT 2008 
Michael i think the song may have been from the cartoon deathclock... ? Wed Sep 24 19:05:13 PDT 2008 
Michael or metalocalyps Wed Sep 24 19:05:42 PDT 2008 
Cynthia Software is a tool... I don't think you could ever accurately call a history book a "tool". Wed Sep 24 19:05:42 PDT 2008 
Michael w/e Wed Sep 24 19:05:44 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau sam look across the room! Wed Sep 24 19:05:44 PDT 2008 
pvd textbooks are written by publishers who pull the history from the winners - but that doesn't mean you can use multiple sources of information to create a more accurate representation of historical events Wed Sep 24 19:05:56 PDT 2008 
pvd might never be perfect but it will be close(r) Wed Sep 24 19:06:05 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 (mike) i want to say behemoth, but i am not sure Wed Sep 24 19:06:09 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 definitely mid-90s thrash Wed Sep 24 19:06:33 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab hybrind spaces that don't attempt to embed us Wed Sep 24 19:06:43 PDT 2008 
Michael I'm not really an expert on this style to be frank Wed Sep 24 19:06:56 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 it's not dethklok, since metalocalypse came out just last year Wed Sep 24 19:07:18 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 and that video is probably 2 or 3 years old Wed Sep 24 19:07:27 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 actually, add years to both of those estimates :) Wed Sep 24 19:08:19 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau you need to use the im-g network not usc wireless and then go to http://chat.imd.anim.usc.edu/chat/backchannel.php Wed Sep 24 19:08:54 PDT 2008 
ndef http://interactive.usc.edu Wed Sep 24 19:09:27 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab vote with your virtual feet Wed Sep 24 19:09:36 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau sorry about the chat. i needed to show someon how to log in to the chat Wed Sep 24 19:09:49 PDT 2008 
ndef Np. Wed Sep 24 19:10:01 PDT 2008 
dub link for that last SL example? Wed Sep 24 19:10:19 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau What's the im-g password? Wed Sep 24 19:10:30 PDT 2008 
ndef This room as a remarkable knowledge object. Wed Sep 24 19:10:33 PDT 2008 
Michael can we say it on this? Wed Sep 24 19:11:00 PDT 2008 
Michael is it secret, is it safe?/ Wed Sep 24 19:11:12 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau it's not like this anymore... it has a giant flamingo Wed Sep 24 19:11:12 PDT 2008 
pweil from the pixel up Wed Sep 24 19:11:31 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau the flamingo! Wed Sep 24 19:12:06 PDT 2008 
Brandi lol. Night trap... Wed Sep 24 19:12:10 PDT 2008 
Michael that course sounds like fun Wed Sep 24 19:12:19 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau it is Wed Sep 24 19:12:29 PDT 2008 
Daniel Ponce to bad the building tools arent the best Wed Sep 24 19:12:45 PDT 2008 
ndef http://interactive.usc.edu/courses/2008_fall/ctin-482-designing_.php Wed Sep 24 19:12:58 PDT 2008 
Veronica http://imlslislanddesign.blogspot.com/ Wed Sep 24 19:13:04 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau sam, ask someon for the password. it's saved in my computer and i don't remember it Wed Sep 24 19:13:11 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau oh actually maybe i do Wed Sep 24 19:13:18 PDT 2008 
Daniel Ponce http://web.media.mit.edu/~dharry/infospaces/full_description.html Wed Sep 24 19:14:07 PDT 2008 
Daniel Ponce http://web.media.mit.edu/~dharry/infospaces/ Wed Sep 24 19:14:48 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau it is true. Wed Sep 24 19:15:07 PDT 2008 
Veronica http://vectors.usc.edu/index.php?page=2|1 Wed Sep 24 19:17:34 PDT 2008 
dub JSB Article on WOW learning: http://www.johnseelybrown.com/playimagination.pdf Wed Sep 24 19:18:29 PDT 2008 
dub http://vectors.usc.edu/index.php?page=2|1 Wed Sep 24 19:18:46 PDT 2008 
Rodriigo Yes! I'm in. thanks eduard. hello world Wed Sep 24 19:20:34 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau lol Wed Sep 24 19:20:42 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau edOuard Wed Sep 24 19:20:51 PDT 2008 
ndef Critical Commons - advocacy for Fair Use, especially in an academic setting. Wed Sep 24 19:22:17 PDT 2008 
pvd http://www.criticalcommons.org Wed Sep 24 19:23:18 PDT 2008 
pvd I guess it's not loading Wed Sep 24 19:23:35 PDT 2008 
Veronica http://erikloyer.com/clients/criticalcommons/ Wed Sep 24 19:23:54 PDT 2008 
Daniel Ponce Can technology bring objectiveness to teaching history? Wed Sep 24 19:25:33 PDT 2008 
Veronica heck no Wed Sep 24 19:25:45 PDT 2008 
ndef I had never heard of Critical Commons before, but I love it. Wed Sep 24 19:26:22 PDT 2008 
Veronica sorry- there is a danger of closer proximity to authentic history Wed Sep 24 19:26:27 PDT 2008 
nahil this kind of wiki/collective consiousness technology certianly brings more voices to the table Wed Sep 24 19:26:31 PDT 2008 
Veronica whatever authentic might mean Wed Sep 24 19:26:35 PDT 2008 
nahil more voices can neutralize biases Wed Sep 24 19:27:19 PDT 2008 
dub naimark plugs movie tagger Wed Sep 24 19:27:20 PDT 2008 
dub http://stevens.usc.edu/innovation_at_usc_search_4003.php Wed Sep 24 19:28:00 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau purpose, purpose, purspose, terror, terror, terror... Wed Sep 24 19:28:00 PDT 2008 
ndef Every movie tagged in 2-3 months... wow. That's an impressive projection. Wed Sep 24 19:28:31 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab It would be interesting to add a layer to that tag DB that maps the emotional content shot by shot Wed Sep 24 19:29:45 PDT 2008 
Michael if I could watch movies and tag them at the same time Wed Sep 24 19:30:00 PDT 2008 
Rodriigo spore got more species made in-game than are known on earth... Wed Sep 24 19:30:02 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau is movie tagger automatic? i didnt hear Wed Sep 24 19:30:09 PDT 2008 
Michael IE xbox tag for netflix Wed Sep 24 19:30:11 PDT 2008 
Rodriigo in less than a month Wed Sep 24 19:30:13 PDT 2008 
ndef October 27th Fair Use Day Wed Sep 24 19:30:14 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau that's not true Wed Sep 24 19:30:18 PDT 2008 
pvd every day is fair use day! Wed Sep 24 19:30:24 PDT 2008 
Michael with bittorrent Wed Sep 24 19:30:35 PDT 2008 
pvd oh come on, with CULTURE Wed Sep 24 19:30:46 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau there's around 25 millions species of insect on earth, that story was fake Wed Sep 24 19:30:50 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau or rather erroneous Wed Sep 24 19:31:01 PDT 2008 
Rodriigo really? b/c it was one of will wright's selling points... Wed Sep 24 19:31:20 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau Communists would love bittorrent Wed Sep 24 19:31:24 PDT 2008 
Rodriigo lol Wed Sep 24 19:31:30 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau I doubt it was spreaded by WW Wed Sep 24 19:31:50 PDT 2008 
Rodriigo and raph koster Wed Sep 24 19:31:54 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab It seems that knowledge objects and/or tools for thinking as thy stand to day, have a heavy 'intent' attached to them Wed Sep 24 19:31:54 PDT 2008 
Rodriigo i was at comicon. he said it ed. Wed Sep 24 19:32:06 PDT 2008 
pvd yes Wed Sep 24 19:32:06 PDT 2008 
pvd because they're not created as a result of culture, but out of an intent to create a knowledge object Wed Sep 24 19:32:34 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab Thet exist to serve a 'specific' pre-imagined purpose or to solve a problem Wed Sep 24 19:32:34 PDT 2008 
pvd also Wed Sep 24 19:32:42 PDT 2008 
pvd because people as a general rule aren't very articulate when it comes to knowledge objects - as we are more comfortable assimilating information through them they may become less pointed Wed Sep 24 19:33:27 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab What if these tools could accommodate a sense/funtctionality of serdipitous discovery or accident? Wed Sep 24 19:33:36 PDT 2008 
pvd I think that's where evocative knowledge objects start to overlap with interactive spaces Wed Sep 24 19:34:15 PDT 2008 
pvd (in a good way) Wed Sep 24 19:34:22 PDT 2008 
dub why matter matters Wed Sep 24 19:34:25 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab Games that afford this kind of 'sand box' approach to knowledge are on to something Wed Sep 24 19:34:37 PDT 2008 
pvd bam Wed Sep 24 19:34:44 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab emergence as learning/creation Wed Sep 24 19:34:46 PDT 2008 
pvd you made my point for me, and saved me the typing Wed Sep 24 19:35:00 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab :) Wed Sep 24 19:35:14 PDT 2008 
ndef Theory and practice is a false binary... Wed Sep 24 19:36:19 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau LittleBig planet could make a great learning environment, seeing how amazing that sony conference was. That's for next semester's CTIN 482 Wed Sep 24 19:36:50 PDT 2008 
pvd ...so let's all do both instead of locking ourselves in a room with no windows Wed Sep 24 19:36:50 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab lol Wed Sep 24 19:37:10 PDT 2008 
Daniel Ponce but can little big planet give a person as much knowlage as a book? Wed Sep 24 19:37:45 PDT 2008 
ndef Depends on the book. Wed Sep 24 19:37:56 PDT 2008 
Michael and the person Wed Sep 24 19:38:03 PDT 2008 
pvd that's a misnomer - why just little big planet? books have been around for centuries Wed Sep 24 19:38:10 PDT 2008 
Rodriigo well a picture's supposed to be worth a thousand words... Wed Sep 24 19:38:11 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau I don't think as much in one level but you can keep creating levels Wed Sep 24 19:38:21 PDT 2008 
dub aggree on little big planet Wed Sep 24 19:38:29 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau lol Wed Sep 24 19:38:31 PDT 2008 
pvd there is nothing to say that a single level of little big planet can't teach us more than Harry Potter book 2 Wed Sep 24 19:38:45 PDT 2008 
Rodriigo or book 5 Wed Sep 24 19:38:56 PDT 2008 
Daniel Ponce just used it since it was mentioned, but just refering to sandbox games in general Wed Sep 24 19:38:56 PDT 2008 
pvd as long as we're talking about pop Wed Sep 24 19:39:02 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab There's value in what James Paul Gee labeled as 'situated learning' Wed Sep 24 19:39:16 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab Simulation has yet to deliver on the promise mirroring and reflecting learning systems Wed Sep 24 19:39:52 PDT 2008 
pvd yeah - there's nothing to say that a strong example of distilled learning in the form of a sandbox game can't teach just as much or more than a similar written work Wed Sep 24 19:40:04 PDT 2008 
pvd however, there's also nothing that suggests it can either (so let's not rule it out) Wed Sep 24 19:40:24 PDT 2008 
Daniel Ponce can this type of interactive learning be useful for all cultures or certain cultures? Wed Sep 24 19:40:44 PDT 2008 
Rodriigo well it's active learning, not passive learning as a book might provide Wed Sep 24 19:40:52 PDT 2008 
pvd or, rather, there are things that [i]suggest[/i] that it can, but nothing that proves it definitively Wed Sep 24 19:40:57 PDT 2008 
pvd except theory and the application of prinicples from other forms of experiential learning Wed Sep 24 19:41:20 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab I think it depends on what that cuture considers as a knowledge model Wed Sep 24 19:41:41 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3185/2680981525_d9f647a0aa.jpg?v=0 Wed Sep 24 19:41:56 PDT 2008 
pvd I think it comes down to a given culture's media literacy Wed Sep 24 19:42:03 PDT 2008 
pvd and what forms of media the culture is comfortable consuming Wed Sep 24 19:42:16 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 but learning took place before media existed Wed Sep 24 19:42:26 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab Cultures that efectively store and process culture oraly would find it jarring to deal with a different representation of it Wed Sep 24 19:42:33 PDT 2008 
pvd what's to say that direct communication isn't a form of media? Wed Sep 24 19:42:36 PDT 2008 
pvd yeah Wed Sep 24 19:43:06 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 do you mean individual to individual communication? Wed Sep 24 19:43:08 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 because learning takes place in situations where that does not occur Wed Sep 24 19:43:27 PDT 2008 
pvd that's true, but given the two situations, learning takes (or can take) place in both Wed Sep 24 19:43:43 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 which means its not dependent on the media? Wed Sep 24 19:44:03 PDT 2008 
pvd learning itself isn't, but the form that the media takes can have an effect on the learning experience based on the media literacy of the subject Wed Sep 24 19:44:37 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab situated in this context means a dialog that engages a learner with the object of study Wed Sep 24 19:44:57 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 do you mean in the lessons learned, or in the process by which that information is learned? Wed Sep 24 19:45:12 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab the kind of feedback you get from toying with concepts in context Wed Sep 24 19:45:39 PDT 2008 
pvd can be context Wed Sep 24 19:45:47 PDT 2008 
pvd @mike, probably a combination of the two, right? Wed Sep 24 19:46:17 PDT 2008 
pvd because the lesson learned can be manipulated by the ability of the subject to absorb the information Wed Sep 24 19:46:38 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 i would agree that the process is dependent entirely / largely on the medium Wed Sep 24 19:47:28 PDT 2008 
pvd and the process is different depending on how acclimated the subject is with the form of media Wed Sep 24 19:47:31 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 but that the lesson can be learned in a number of ways Wed Sep 24 19:47:38 PDT 2008 
pvd yeah, I thing that's definitely true Wed Sep 24 19:47:47 PDT 2008 
pvd but we weren't debating that right? Wed Sep 24 19:47:56 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 i was just taking issue with Mcluhan Wed Sep 24 19:48:17 PDT 2008 
pvd oh, yeah for sure Wed Sep 24 19:48:22 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 i don't necessarily see medium as equal to message Wed Sep 24 19:48:30 PDT 2008 
pvd certainly not. Wed Sep 24 19:48:37 PDT 2008 
Michael algorithmic pleasure Wed Sep 24 19:48:42 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 that's far to short-sighted Wed Sep 24 19:48:43 PDT 2008 
pvd it would be a mistake to completely separate the two, though Wed Sep 24 19:48:50 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab How does including other voices in the knowledge dialog change the expert vs layperson rift? Wed Sep 24 19:49:03 PDT 2008 
pvd separate is the wrong word - it would be a mistake to not consider medium when considering communication Wed Sep 24 19:49:14 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 well, true, in the same manner that equating them is Wed Sep 24 19:49:23 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 it would, but so would privledging medium OVER message Wed Sep 24 19:50:01 PDT 2008 
Michael neither can CS Wed Sep 24 19:50:10 PDT 2008 
pvd I think that we're kind of jumping around something else here Wed Sep 24 19:50:17 PDT 2008 
pweil Did you say "Chinese encyclopedia" and if so, could you elaborate (or input a link?) Wed Sep 24 19:50:28 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 oh? Wed Sep 24 19:50:29 PDT 2008 
ndef The Borges quote mentioned earlier. Wed Sep 24 19:50:43 PDT 2008 
pvd because in some cases the medium completely camouflages the message Wed Sep 24 19:50:43 PDT 2008 
pvd or can Wed Sep 24 19:50:45 PDT 2008 
pweil ah, the Borges slide. Wed Sep 24 19:50:45 PDT 2008 
pvd so in that case, the message remains, but the medium prohibits communication of the message Wed Sep 24 19:51:07 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 well, so can the interpretation of the message Wed Sep 24 19:51:08 PDT 2008 
ndef "I like the systems and when the systems go awry." Wed Sep 24 19:51:11 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 but tht is reallu just splittig hairs Wed Sep 24 19:51:16 PDT 2008 
pvd indeed, and the medium can also have an effect on that interpretation Wed Sep 24 19:51:21 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 we are almost debating intent versus execution Wed Sep 24 19:51:24 PDT 2008 
pvd yeah we're dangerously close Wed Sep 24 19:51:32 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 shall we go down that road? Wed Sep 24 19:51:44 PDT 2008 
pvd I'm not sure that's a good idea Wed Sep 24 19:51:47 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 well, we shall have it later, then Wed Sep 24 19:51:59 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab What I was goin for with my question was: since these tolls create instant experts what future does practice have? Wed Sep 24 19:52:08 PDT 2008 
AlaDiab tools Wed Sep 24 19:52:30 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau speak up! Wed Sep 24 19:52:40 PDT 2008 
pvd don't forget research (theory) Wed Sep 24 19:52:49 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 and should we differentiate practice from experimentation? Wed Sep 24 19:53:25 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 its just a linguistic trick, but... Wed Sep 24 19:53:35 PDT 2008 
pvd also, research is based on research AND practice (and experimentation) Wed Sep 24 19:53:41 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 yes, the scientific method necessitates both Wed Sep 24 19:54:02 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 so in that sense, neither will ever die (or "win out") Wed Sep 24 19:54:24 PDT 2008 
pvd yep Wed Sep 24 19:54:47 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 which simply reduces it to a matter of preference Wed Sep 24 19:55:05 PDT 2008 
pvd or language Wed Sep 24 19:55:11 PDT 2008 
ndef Epistimology is political. Changing the way you think about things is a political action. Wed Sep 24 19:55:11 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 thereby rendering either position inarguable Wed Sep 24 19:55:24 PDT 2008 
pvd highfive Wed Sep 24 19:55:33 PDT 2008 
Rodriigo knowledge is power Wed Sep 24 19:55:36 PDT 2008 
Bill Is it political epistimology the same as framing a debate to your advantage? Wed Sep 24 19:56:31 PDT 2008 
ndef I think it's more about understanding the system, rather than simply holding a position about an issue. Wed Sep 24 19:57:19 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau @rodriigo i'd disagree. You can find knowledge on the web Wed Sep 24 19:57:53 PDT 2008 
ndef Many people consider an issue as a binary choice, rather than a complex system. Wed Sep 24 19:58:08 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau and not just wikipedia. You can find all the info you need to build a website as big as digg.com on their tech blog Wed Sep 24 19:58:27 PDT 2008 
Rodriigo and? your point? Wed Sep 24 19:58:42 PDT 2008 
Veronica Evocative knowledge systems Wed Sep 24 19:58:48 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau knowledge is not power anymore Wed Sep 24 19:58:51 PDT 2008 
Rodriigo oh Wed Sep 24 19:58:57 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau ideas and thinking is Wed Sep 24 19:59:07 PDT 2008 
Rodriigo when judgement day comes, then you'll see. Wed Sep 24 19:59:17 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau lol Wed Sep 24 19:59:23 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 second life is like a hammer, it;s perfect if every problem you have is a nail Wed Sep 24 19:59:30 PDT 2008 
pvd are you implying that someone who is uninformed is as effective in a given situation as someone who is highly knowledgable? Wed Sep 24 19:59:31 PDT 2008 
Michael I'm going to try it tonight Wed Sep 24 19:59:35 PDT 2008 
Rodriigo i suppose but how can one think elloquently w/o knowledge Wed Sep 24 19:59:37 PDT 2008 
ndef @Mike Doesn't that describe just about every tool? Wed Sep 24 20:00:10 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 well, exactly Wed Sep 24 20:00:24 PDT 2008 
pvd except the internet! Wed Sep 24 20:00:26 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 it all comes down to application Wed Sep 24 20:00:36 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau no because the unknowledgeable one will have to learn the knowledge and that will take a lot of time to be in his system and if time is important (it always is) then he won't be as efficient Wed Sep 24 20:00:52 PDT 2008 
ndef @Ed I don't understand. Are you referring to CENTRALIZED knowledge specifically, or knowledge in general? Wed Sep 24 20:01:08 PDT 2008 
Veronica doesn't it matter how you view/ approach that tool? Wed Sep 24 20:01:21 PDT 2008 
ndef You still can't build Digg if you don't have that knowledge. Wed Sep 24 20:01:24 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau *to be in his system as well as the knowledgable person Wed Sep 24 20:01:26 PDT 2008 
ndef It's just that the knowledge is more accessible now. Wed Sep 24 20:01:33 PDT 2008 
ndef It's still powerful. Wed Sep 24 20:01:37 PDT 2008 
ndef It's just not expensive. Wed Sep 24 20:01:41 PDT 2008 
pvd or elusive Wed Sep 24 20:01:48 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 @v yes, it does, but i can still build things with just a hammer Wed Sep 24 20:01:49 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 it all comes down to how i use it Wed Sep 24 20:01:56 PDT 2008 
Seminar_9/24 or how i approach the problem Wed Sep 24 20:02:29 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau si j'avais un marteau, je taperai la nuit, je taperai le jour... french song Wed Sep 24 20:02:36 PDT 2008 
Veronica objects / texts to think with - cronenberg Wed Sep 24 20:02:54 PDT 2008 
Veronica to also feel with Wed Sep 24 20:03:06 PDT 2008 
Bill Cronenberg's practice drives Anderson's theory. Wed Sep 24 20:03:21 PDT 2008 
Ed.lorenceau bye bye http://gaygamer.net/images/lbp_ps3_sackboy_dragon.jpg Wed Sep 24 20:04:12 PDT 2008